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Like I said some people don't have an issue with dressing their kids at Goodwill. But for me that was the level of affordability that I set for myself. And besides, someone has to buy all the stuff new for it to get to Goodwill right?! But seriously there is a difference between choosing to shop there and needing to. I never wanted to need to.
As for corporate tax breaks creating jobs, they create profits and dividends. Not jobs. I used to specialise in helping companies take advantage of tax breaks and believe me they weren't using that cash to hire more people.
I've been reading some threads lately that have multiple comments stating you should not have kids unless you can afford them.
It got me thinking - what does this actually mean to people in real terms, and what kind of income are we talking about?
I'm curious as to whether there are people that see kids of something as a luxury item, economically speaking, and where we draw the line as a society, in terms of folks that are never going to have the potential to be big wage earners and whether that negates their "right" (for want of a better term) to become parents.
Where do we draw the line?
Well first of all it simply stupid and irresponsible to have a child you cannot support. By support means you can add a child to your medical insurance plan, and that you can provide the basic necessities and a few luxuries. That means you can provide a safe place to live, food, and clothing that is at least presentable. Kids need a few toys, books, crayons.
You should be able to provide a child with a few extras, at least an occasional trip somewhere, family events like the zoo, swimming lessons. And also a pet of some kind. Birthday presents of some kind to show your child he or she is special. It doesn't mean a high income.
Can you afford to feed a child, without outside help from the government or other relatives? Will you have health insurance, or enough income to pay for doctors? Can you afford life insurance - so that the child will be taken care of, even if something happens to you?
Do you think it's 'not a big deal' if your phone gets shut off for a few days because you forgot to pay the bill? Can you easily afford your utility bills/rent/mortgage, etc each month?
Do you have a plan for who will take care of your child each day? If that plan involves others either providing income or care, do you have a viable back up plan?
Can you afford to spend $350 on a whole new seasonal wardrobe including shoes for your 2 year old - just to discover three weeks later they've had a growth spurt and NOTHING fits?
It's almost impossible to plan financially for a child. If you and your spouse are responsible adults, who aren't struggling to put food in your mouths each month, or to pay the electric bill, you'll probably be fine.
Pretty much agree - although it isn't always necessary to have $350 a season for a toddler's clothes. Some families and friends pass clothes around and little money is needed for clothes. Same with diapers, my niece sews her own diapers besides working several part time jobs to supplement her husband's wages. They're not broke but they like to have other things such as horses, nice vehicles, camping trips -- so they scrimp where they can.
It can depend on other choices you've made. If you live in an upper class neighborhood, it might not be fair to have your child dressed in near-rags.
They DO have kids. And tax breaks to corporations create jobs, hand outs create what? One more generation of people who did what? Or didn't do what? Finish HS? Go to college? What did they do with their lives that put them in the situation the are in? 20 year olds, today, were born in 1990. Come on. This isn't 1920. The "poor you, you never had a chance because of A, B, C, or D" is over.
Then why have wages remained stagnant while cost of living has gone up? Some people will graduate high school and still end up in low wage jobs. Without some help from medicaid, food stamps and day care assistance they aren't going to be able to make ends meet.
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Qualifying for food stamps is huge b/c if you qualify for food stamps, at least where I live, you also tend to qualify for Medicaid, section-8 housing, dwelling bill-pay assistance, state funded day-care, etc.
All of the people who I knew who were abusing the system received housing assistance. The wait list for section 8 is very long around here and most people stay on that list for years and don't end up getting it, not because they don't qualify but because it's a lottery and their number never comes up.
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I work with low-income people all day long. I would say 95% are taking advantage. I had one client who had a "friend" take a golf club to his leg so he could stay on disability. A lot of my female clients are all up in other female clients faces when it comes to "why hasn't your 16 year old given you a gran' baby yet?" Or "Oh! Your 13 year old is pregnant? 'Bout time and congratulations (to the 30 year old grandmother to be! - and no, not making it up because you just can't).
I come from a different place/frame of mind when it comes down to who my clients are and have been for almost 20 years now. And NONE of them who are ok with their status quo should have kids as it's a generational issue of figuring out how to live off of others and nothing more and nothing less.
Like I said, falling on hard times is one thing. I'd worry about the person who wasn't embarrassed.
I did take issue with those who had free or nearly free housing and who didn't work. That is an abuse of the system. I also didn't agree with those who had food stamps but bought every meal at Mc Donald's or those who had drug dealer boyfriends who were able to buy them nice furniture, clothes and cars but have their income not be counted because it was completely illegal. People do take advantage but from what I've experienced in working with this population, most were not. I can definitely see how this could vary from one city to the next.
Everybody keeps looking at the lower end of the spectrum. At the top we have those who send their kids off to boarding school at 8 years old. When they are home on break, they seldom see their parents. Christmas? Piles of presents, but no warmth, no love, no personal connection with family members.
Who is anyone to determine who should have kids and who shouldn't. Some of the most truely loved children are those who come from families that don't have it all. They know what it means to work and grow up with a true sense of self worth.
Then why have wages remained stagnant while cost of living has gone up? Some people will graduate high school and still end up in low wage jobs. Without some help from medicaid, food stamps and day care assistance they aren't going to be able to make ends meet.
Section 8 Housing/Rent stabilization is the reason the cost of living is so high in NYC.
Also, minimum wage was never meant to be a life long thing. Could you imagine how expensive everything would be if minimum wage was a living wage!
My husband is in the Army and I stay at home with our 2.5 year old daughter. He makes less than 40K and we manage fine. Of course we're not going on lavish vacations, or buying designer clothes but we are happy with what we have.
Everybody keeps looking at the lower end of the spectrum. At the top we have those who send their kids off to boarding school at 8 years old. When they are home on break, they seldom see their parents. Christmas? Piles of presents, but no warmth, no love, no personal connection with family members.
Who is anyone to determine who should have kids and who shouldn't. Some of the most truely loved children are those who come from families that don't have it all. They know what it means to work and grow up with a true sense of self worth.
Well that is kind of the point of this thread. What do you mean when you state that 'you shouldn't have kids if you can't afford them'? It's something that's said quite often on this forum.
I think there are plenty of people who would be great parents but are likely to never be in a position to actually really afford kids, given the undeniably high cost of raising children.
From the USDA:
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In 2009, for two-child husband-wife families depending on age of the child, annual expenses ranged from $8,330 to $9,450 for families with a before-tax income less than $56,670.
Apparently, the biggest increase for parents is daycare, which used to cost 2% of your income in the 60's, and now costs 17%, and health care, which is now double what it cost then. Interestingly, the relative cost of food and transportation is reported to be less, and housing has remained about the same.
Given those numbers, I'd hate to see having children becoming something only the well off can enjoy.
I honestly don't have any problem with my tax dollars going to support lower income families who are struggling with these expenses (health care and daycare, mainly). I don't support lazy, leech like persons irresponsibly having children in order to get benefits out of the system. That's a different issue, IMO.
I agree with the rest of your post. There are indeed many wealthy families that prove having money is not an indicator of good parenting.
How much you need to afford a kid is all relative. To one, a small apartment might be just fine, and to another, a 2500+ sq. ft. house is neccessary. One family might eat out all the time, another might be on a strict food budget and cook everything at home. And cost of living varies so much from one part of the country to another. I do agree though, that you should be able to make ends meet without government assistance. I don't have a problem with someone collecting government assistance temporarily because of a job loss, etc. But it should be TEMPORARY, not a way of life. And it is a way of life for far too many. If you can't afford a child without government assistance, then you should work on getting an education and a good job BEFORE having children.
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