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If this is the only method of classroom management used then it is guaranteed to end with none of the kids ever behaving. If you know that at least one person will misbehave and you will be punished anyway why would you bother to behave yourself?
No, it's not the only method. It was a 'special occasion'. And I do think that if it was a minority rather than a majority, they would have approached it differently.
I do agree that regular use/overuse of this method would not get much of an outcome. Why bother behaving, exactly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gottasay
Well, I can think of cases in real life in which masses of people are punished for the bad behavior of a few. For example, taxpayers get punished for the stupid spending habits of politicians. Or, individual Americans often get blamed for the foreign policy of the U.S. when they travel (even if they don't agree with it).
Haha, good point. It will at least get them ready for it....
Quote:
Originally Posted by TakeAhike
If it was an 'occasional' punishment essay--I would say just write it. Let him/her express thoughts, feelings of injustice.
If it happened again and my child wasn't involved I would contact the teacher/administrator.
That's basically what I think, 'occasional', ok. If it became ongoing or some sort of relied upon technique, and my child wasn't involved, I'd start having questions.
Since this is a parenting forum, I think sometimes the best way to think of it is when your children or child gets the brunt end of a parents rough day/bad mood. If there are more than 1 in the family, the times when all the children get a consequence due to 1 again, due to parents' frustration/overtired/annoyed/sick..I mean the list can go on & we have all been guilty of it. If this is habitual in nature w/ the parents, there is a problem. But it happens at least once where all the children get a consequence due to the behavior of one or a child gets unnecessarily snipped at.
As from the teaching perspective, same thing. Especially for subs where kids know they can walk all over that person. And dependant on the day, the AP could just be done w/ it all. Is it right? Nope. But it happens. And if one's child was doing the right thing & got caught in the crossfire, it is a great life lesson. If not, again, a great life lesson.
Sometimes it helps to think as a parent if you had 20 or more kids in one room for a hour & they knew you were not their parent/didn't care if you were their parent/just wanted to make the day rough for the fun of it/just trying to make the day ok for the sub...20+ kids (especially middle/high schoolers) can be a bear & hopefully the AP was just having a rough day. Not right what he did, but also not on the edge of child abuse or permanently scarring the studnents.
I remember clear as day the very first time I subbed. It was a middle school & a student threw a chair out the window, walked up to me & said "What the f you going to do about me?" About 75% of the class laughed/fell on the ground laughing, etc & a few sat there looking at me. I called the principal. I didn't know what to do. I don't know exactly what happened to the boy, but he was removed from the class for that period. I just gave the rest of the class the assigned work & listened to them giggle & whisper. I learned a lot from subbing.
If this was a habitual practice w/ the AP, then that is definitely wrong & quite unfair. Mass punishment is counterproductive in the education system. IMO, mass punishment across the border is counterproductive.
I think that subbing at middle school level is a really tough road (well done to you for doing it!). That's exactly why the kids were being brats, sub teacher, some of them just saw a chance to act up. I've never heard a word from his regular teacher over any problems in that class, it seems to run pretty smoothly. But, yes, I remember having substitute teachers at middle school....
And good point on the parenting perspective (yes, I snap at kids and give consequences to all on the rare occasion). I agree on it being a life lesson anyway, and the essay they were assigned was at least...thoughtful/could be applied to school anyway. At least more constructive and reflective than writing 100 lines or something...(of course that's now me speaking from the point of view of having a kid who did involve himself, the quiet ones only need to reflect on how they've been disrupted by others...)
I don't know if this is a habitual practice for the AP, I haven't come across it before with him. I do agree that if this was the first response to every classroom issue, you're going to create more problems than you solve.
By the way, they didn't cause any major problems the second day that they had the sub. So I think the AP was at least effective....
I don't think it's terribly uncommon if it was bad behavior while there was a sub. The sub doesn't know everyone by name - and if they just let the teacher know what was going on by the majority...well......
There was tons of mass discipline at my highschool. By subs and by regular teachers. Usually because the majority of people where acting up ALL the time. I describe my highschool as an over priced day care.
i myself would disagree with it, i had been the victim of one such punishment in school, tho it was not a sub, and it was actually the other way around
instead of the majority misbehaving it was a minority, 3 of my classmates decided to talk during a test, the teacher (who was also known for some other unacceptable behavior such as grabbing students by their shirt, picking them up by said shirt, and shoving them against walls hard enough for an audible thud to be heard from 20 feet away, and these acts also caused the school board to force him to resign after the school year due to multiple complaints from parents) spoke up and gave one warning that it was to be silent during the test, that he knew who was talking and there would be consequences if it continued, well the students of course were stupid and continued, the punishment was to end the test for the time being and that the definition of quiet (the full right out of the dictionary definition) was to be written 10 times by every student in the classroom (a class size of over 30 students) on our own time after the initial 5 minutes in class that he gave us, and every day it wasnt turned in it doubled, and no recess till it was completed
so yeah... if my kid is caught in crossfire because of some other idiot(s), ima tell him "dont do the assignment and if the teacher has a problem with it tell him to call me"
This isn't really related to the other thread going on at the moment about classroom management techniques but it had me thinking about other management techniques that go on.
What do think about 'mass punishment' of entire classes over the actions of some in the class? Fair? Not fair?
For example, just recently my 13 year old son had a substitute teacher for one of his classes. And the majority of them were pains in the butt...not all of them, but a lot of them. One of the APs told them what he thought of them and every single kid in the class was assigned an extra homework "punishment" essay about classroom conduct/disruptive behavior/respect etc - even the ones who may have been sitting quietly, 'being good'.
Well I asked my son if he had been disruptive, "..........yup" (aha, surprise) so this didn't bother me.
But how would you feel if you had one of the kids who had been 'quiet & good'? Would you call it unfair, would it bother you, or would you just think 'no harm done'?
Would it have been more fair for the teacher to just "bust" the kids he saw or heard causing problems but the sneaky ones got away?
If these kids are supposed to be AP, they should know better than to act like a bunch of disrespectful jackholes. The ones who were "being good" should have pulled the coattails of the trouble makers and told them to knock it off and show some respect.
I am in full support of the teachers.
Sometimes as a kid you just get caught up in the rabble and you have to just take it.
When I was a kid, there were occasions when the whole class was on detention. Sure some of us were guilty and others not.
Of course, if asked, we were all innocent.
Kids should learn to behave and be respectful of teachers.
We have so many good people who used to be teachers but who have become so stressed out by the bad behaviour of the kids.
Would it have been more fair for the teacher to just "bust" the kids he saw or heard causing problems but the sneaky ones got away?
If these kids are supposed to be AP, they should know better than to act like a bunch of disrespectful jackholes. The ones who were "being good" should have pulled the coattails of the trouble makers and told them to knock it off and show some respect.
I love that you used the word "jackhole!" I agree with you completely, and to add to the point... I've been teaching at the college level for nearly 20 years now, and every year, the students are more and more disrespectful of faculty. It's to the point where we have to have yearly pre-term workshops about how to deal with disruptive students who refuse to adhere to the course policies and then become belligerent when they aren't given a pass.
I truly think that it's because parents are somehow sending the message to their children that it's only necessary to respect teachers when the students agree with them. I see plenty of smart students failing college classes over stupid discipline issues like earning excessive absences for not showing up or for using cell phones during class or not turning in their work on time and expecting to talk their way out of it. So parents who take the "you only have to listen to the teacher if you think he/she is being fair" approach with their children are setting them up for problems later. Many of my colleagues have zero patience for this kind of entitlement.
Last edited by lucygirl951; 12-15-2010 at 07:09 AM..
I truly think that it's because parents are somehow sending the message to their children that it's only necessary to respect teachers when the students agree with them. I see plenty of smart students failing college classes over stupid discipline issues like earning excessive absences for not showing up or for using cell phones during class or not turning in their work on time and expecting to talk their way out of it. So parents who take the "you only have to listen to the teacher if you think he/she is being fair" approach with their children are setting them up for problems later. Many of my colleagues have zero patience for this kind of entitlement.
I agree with a lot of what you say, but on the other hand I think some of this type of behavior from parents is due to the"zero tolerance" stance. I know for myself my kids have been disciplined using zero tolerance for what I consider to be extremely minor misdemeanors instead of the teacher or administrator using their discretion.
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