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Old 12-18-2010, 03:18 PM
 
Location: Austin, TX!!!!
3,765 posts, read 8,002,113 times
Reputation: 1759

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Quote:
Originally Posted by aidxen View Post
I am saddened when I read threads like this one.

Saddened that for whatever reason it seems that kids see the need to totally throw out the values and beliefs of their parents. Saddened that they see rebellion as the answer. Sure kids need to go out spread their wings and experience things on their own. That should be with their parents blessing and support and they should do it knowing that their parents support them and not see the need to totally break free by trashing whatthey have.

I am also saddened that we have moved into this "I can't prove God exists therefore I will disregard the church" thing. Its a sort of excuse. A sort of psudo scientific approach to life. Because I can't prove it, it must be wrong. Personally I think the dogged approach by those who wish to keep religeon out of schools has then caused the religeous right to dream up "intelligent design" and somehow have religeon masqurade as science. I would much prefer a middle ground of religeon and faith in our schools as it is a part of life. But don't pretend it is science with a hypothesis and a proof required.

Getting back to the OP, we do expect (read force if you like) our kids to go to church. I hope that as they grow that they will continue to go to church. I hope that they do not resent us. I do know that they make sacrifices and sometimes have to tell their friends - "Sorry, I can't come or do or whatever because I have to be with my family and / or I have to go to church". I hope that they will look back and say that in the end it was worth it.
Well, if you want religion and faith in your schools, then so be it (your location is listed as Australia). But here in the US the Supreme Court has determined it would be a violation of the Constitution. That doesn't mean that parents cannot teach and do not teach it at home. I know plenty of catholic kids that went to public school and still attended catechism when we were growing up. Heck, I went to Catholic school for eleven and a half years and I still ended up becoming an agnostic.

I don't think your assessment of how people become atheist or agnostics is at all accurate. I came to my belief years after I left home and through much soul searching and study. So it was not a result of my being a rebellious teenager or that I cannot prove God exists. In fact, I cannot prove he doesn't exist either. That's probably why I wouldn't go as far as to say there is no greater power than us.

I don't think I threw out the values of my Catholic mother. I have led a life defined by good moral choices, I treat others with respect and dignity, love my children, have been faithful to my spouse, have undertaken acts of charity and am unwilling to compromise my integrity. In some ways we've given up a lot materially to live consistently with our moral values (I don't practice law even though I hold a JD because of what I deem as a system that brings out the worst and most petty in us). I didn't need a belief in some great arbiter that metes out punishment so that I behave this way. I simply do it because it is the right thing to do. There are absolute rights or wrong but I believe we can determine those without having to believe in a deity.

 
Old 12-18-2010, 03:19 PM
 
131 posts, read 156,348 times
Reputation: 239
And just to bring up another example... what if the OP had come on here saying that he was gay, and his parents were trying to force him into counseling in an attempt to "turn straight?" One of my best friends' mothers did this to him. He refused to go. He did everything in his power not to go. It hurt him deeply that his parents would do this. Yes, he could have gone to "respect" them. But in turn, simply going would be completely disrespecting himself.

So my question is... would your advice be the same in that situation?
 
Old 12-18-2010, 03:20 PM
 
131 posts, read 156,348 times
Reputation: 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennibc View Post
Well, if you want religion and faith in your schools, then so be it (your location is listed as Australia). But here in the US the Supreme Court has determined it would be a violation of the Constitution. That doesn't mean that parents cannot teach and do not teach it at home. I know plenty of catholic kids that went to public school and still attended catechism when we were growing up. Heck, I went to Catholic school for eleven and a half years and I still ended up becoming an agnostic.

I don't think your assessment of how people become atheist or agnostics is at all accurate. I came to my belief years after I left home and through much soul searching and study. So it was not a result of my being a rebellious teenager or that I cannot prove God exists. In fact, I cannot prove he doesn't exist either. That's probably why I wouldn't go as far as to say there is no greater power than us.

I don't think I threw out the values of my Catholic mother. I have led a life defined by good moral choices, I treat others with respect and dignity, love my children, have been faithful to my spouse, have undertaken acts of charity and am unwilling to compromise my integrity. In some ways we've given up a lot materially to live consistently with our moral values (I don't practice law even though I hold a JD because of what I deem as a system that brings out the worst and most petty in us). I didn't need a belief in some great arbiter that metes out punishment so that I behave this way. I simply do it because it is the right thing to do. There are absolute rights or wrong but I believe we can determine those without having to believe in a deity.
 
Old 12-18-2010, 04:16 PM
 
Location: Western Washington
8,004 posts, read 10,260,041 times
Reputation: 19461
[quote=psr13;17042566]
Quote:
Originally Posted by ciaobellaxx View Post
Being an atheist generally requires a high level of logic and reasoning, so I commend you for that. I hope you remain strong in the face of all the adults with blind faith in an invisible sky daddy who patronise you and insist you can't know your own mind at a young age.

[/e quote]

This is very condescending. In my opinion, being a Christian requires a high level of logic and reasoning. Discuss the topic without attacks.

It's your parents decision if they want you to go to church. They probably feel that if you stop believing it is somehow their faults. That would make them feel as though they are damning you to Hell. While you live in their house, you follow their rules.
Okay, I was going to avoid this thread at all cost. LOL I can't...I just CAN'T. This post here ^^^^ is right on. I tried to avoid this snide, condescending remark too. Really? Come on, REALLY!? You make a ridiculous statement like this and profess to be superior in your logic and reasoning skills? Really!? ROTFLOL Anyone who has eyes, who really looks at life, living things, gravity, planetary rotations and alignments.....I mean, REALLY looks at things, if they possessed a great deal of logic and reason, would automatically KNOW, beyond a shadow of a doubt there there is something with powers and an imagination, beyond the grasp of human wisdom who created everything you see! Do we KNOW, really know, what it/he/she looks like? How 'they' did it? WHY they did it? No. We don't. We have "Bibles" which tell us how we came to be, however, I remember struggling with "God" at times, because I wanted to know where HE came from!

To the OP......You are under 18 and living under your parents' roof. If you want their respect, respect them. Clearly, they NEED to go to church and they NEED and WANT you to go to church. They are not harming you by making you go. As other posters have said,once you're paying your way, supporting yourself, living under your roof, it's your choice. Now....it's theirs. If you've spent your whole life in church, you know that you will suffer consequences for dishonoring and disobeying your parents. Sure, they can't take away your birthday...but consequences take many forms. There WILL be consequences if you defy them. It's best to simply do as others have said, GO to church. If you aren't believing the doctrine, at least pay attention to the "golden rules" and "words of wisdom" being preached.
 
Old 12-18-2010, 04:32 PM
 
16,308 posts, read 25,386,371 times
Reputation: 8305
Quote:
Originally Posted by uptown_urbanist View Post
I'm not religious myself, but I agree with your parents on this one; they have the right to expect you to come to church. When you're on your own you can choose differently. You don't have to believe in what you hear at church, but it's not going to hurt you to go. And as others have said, you can still learn things. I assume that listening to a sermon in a church as a believer is different than listening as someone who no longer believes in it, so might as well sit back and listen to things with your new perspective. Or just daydream. In any case, I think it's perfectly reasonable that they expect you to attend church with them. In a few years you'll be out on your own and can do things your own way. In the meantime be happy that at least you'll have a solid religious education (I assume); I don't, and even if you don't believe in what's in it, the Bible is obviously a text of extreme importance, and have a better understanding of why religion is so important to many people and how it functions in daily life. Consider it a learning experience, or just something you have to do while you're still a teenager living at home with your parents.
Absolutely wrong, to not listen to a 16 year old and understanding their feelings, etc. is stoooooooooooopid parenting.

Yes, there are times to put your foot down with your kids, rules that must be followed, but they MUST be allowed make decisions else they become completely rebellious and incapable of making rational decisions when to do leave home. They are rapidly and likely irreversibly driving a wedge between themselves and the 16 year old. I guess it is a good way to make sure they move out of the house on their 18th birthday though.
 
Old 12-18-2010, 04:43 PM
 
131 posts, read 156,348 times
Reputation: 239
[quote=beachmel;17052939]
Quote:
Originally Posted by psr13 View Post

Okay, I was going to avoid this thread at all cost. LOL I can't...I just CAN'T. This post here ^^^^ is right on. I tried to avoid this snide, condescending remark too. Really? Come on, REALLY!? You make a ridiculous statement like this and profess to be superior in your logic and reasoning skills? Really!? ROTFLOL Anyone who has eyes, who really looks at life, living things, gravity, planetary rotations and alignments.....I mean, REALLY looks at things, if they possessed a great deal of logic and reason, would automatically KNOW, beyond a shadow of a doubt there there is something with powers and an imagination, beyond the grasp of human wisdom who created everything you see! Do we KNOW, really know, what it/he/she looks like? How 'they' did it? WHY they did it? No. We don't. We have "Bibles" which tell us how we came to be, however, I remember struggling with "God" at times, because I wanted to know where HE came from!

To the OP......You are under 18 and living under your parents' roof. If you want their respect, respect them. Clearly, they NEED to go to church and they NEED and WANT you to go to church. They are not harming you by making you go. As other posters have said,once you're paying your way, supporting yourself, living under your roof, it's your choice. Now....it's theirs. If you've spent your whole life in church, you know that you will suffer consequences for dishonoring and disobeying your parents. Sure, they can't take away your birthday...but consequences take many forms. There WILL be consequences if you defy them. It's best to simply do as others have said, GO to church. If you aren't believing the doctrine, at least pay attention to the "golden rules" and "words of wisdom" being preached.
So, what are the "consequences?"

Do you think that parents forcing their child to disregard his personal values and comply with theirs doesn't have consequences? Everyone repeats that respect is a two-way street. The parents refuse to respect Handel's wishes about his personal values. A child really doesn't owe his parents compliance with their belief system. The consequences of Handel's parents' actions is that they will distance themselves from their child, create resentment, and potentially harm his self-confidence in his ability to reason.

Consequences can be positive things, too. Having a child who is confident and happy in his beliefs is a positive consequence. If Handel's parents allow him this freedom... it just might save their relationship.
 
Old 12-18-2010, 04:45 PM
 
131 posts, read 156,348 times
Reputation: 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asheville Native View Post
Absolutely wrong, to not listen to a 16 year old and understanding their feelings, etc. is stoooooooooooopid parenting.

Yes, there are times to put your foot down with your kids, rules that must be followed, but they MUST be allowed make decisions else they become completely rebellious and incapable of making rational decisions when to do leave home. They are rapidly and likely irreversibly driving a wedge between themselves and the 16 year old. I guess it is a good way to make sure they move out of the house on their 18th birthday though.
Exactly. Disagreement is not rebellion... rebellion is the product of parents not allowing their kids to express and follow through with the ways in which they disagree.

 
Old 12-18-2010, 04:46 PM
 
Location: 602/520
2,441 posts, read 6,224,220 times
Reputation: 1815
Just go and sit there. Bring your homework and an iPod along and keep busy. I know the difficulty is sitting with a bunch of self-righteous, judgemental folks who soak up every word that the minister hurls out of his/her mouth.

I dealt with parents who forced me to go to church. Since leaving their house, I have not been back. Just know that in a couple years you will be free to make your own decisions.
 
Old 12-18-2010, 04:51 PM
 
131 posts, read 156,348 times
Reputation: 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by miamiman View Post
Just go and sit there. Bring your homework and an iPod along and keep busy. I know the difficulty is sitting with a bunch of self-righteous, judgemental folks who soak up every word that the minister hurls out of his/her mouth.

I dealt with parents who forced me to go to church. Since leaving their house, I have not been back. Just know that in a couple years you will be free to make your own decisions.
Indeed.
 
Old 12-18-2010, 04:53 PM
 
Location: Eastwood, Orlando FL
1,260 posts, read 1,452,460 times
Reputation: 1420
HI there. I'm a newbie here. I was raised in a Catholic home. I was even one of the first altar girls in the Archdiocese of Boston. I never really felt or believed what my mother did. I was Confirmed in 9th grade. I didn't believe in any of it but I felt it would break my mother's heart if I didn't and I also knew it was not up for debate. I did feel dishonest up there being confirmed. I'm still not sure that it was the right things to do.
I did continue to go to church until I left for the Marines at 18. Over the years my mother watched me leave Catholicism, look at other religions and eventually convert to Judaism nearly 10 years ago. Guess who was very supportive of those choices? My mother. I was an adult, and at that point she knew it was my right and my decision. Before that, she felt she had a moral obligation to teach me her religion.
The OP probably will just have to suck it up. It would be nice if his parents agreed with his decision, but they may not feel like that is an option for them. hey may view teaching him their religion is a parental obligation. They may react very differently in 5 or 10 years if he still feels the same way.
I know it's not fun to have to sit there and be a part of something you don't believe in but that's just the way life works. It won't be the last time either
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