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Old 04-02-2011, 01:01 PM
 
157 posts, read 140,252 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FinsterRufus View Post
That's a lovely story. I'd like to give you my experience of what really happens when you let kids run wild without any adult interference.

I grew up in the 70's, when kid's went out and played with the neighborhood kids, with never an adult in sight. We were indeed left to sort out the natural order of things.

When I was 11, we moved across the country to a completely different social environment. I was excited and happy about the move. We moved into a slightly rural neighborhood next door to a family of 9 kids, 6 boys and 3 girls. The boys 6 boys were the oldest, and the 3 girls the youngest.
That's a lovely story, but it isn't always what really happens.

I grew up on a farm. There were 5 of us kids. My brother and I ALWAYS fought. When my cousins visited, there was a pack of 12 kids running wild outside while the adults were inside. When there were problems, we solved them. None of us tattled because it wouldn't have done any good. All we were told was to make up and stop fighting. In all those years, I don't recall an adult having to step out and scold any of us.

When we visited our cousins, we included their neighbors' kids and our pack totalled 17 kids. We were ALWAYS outside. The adults were ALWAYS inside, yet we all managed to get our points across and when we fought, someone won and someone lost, but we never included the adults. None of us died and none of us suffered ill effects for life, but we did learn, all on our own, the order of life and how to handle ourselves.
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Old 04-02-2011, 01:38 PM
 
13,239 posts, read 9,857,843 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by standupandbecounted View Post
That's a lovely story, but it isn't always what really happens.

I grew up on a farm. There were 5 of us kids. My brother and I ALWAYS fought. When my cousins visited, there was a pack of 12 kids running wild outside while the adults were inside. When there were problems, we solved them. None of us tattled because it wouldn't have done any good. All we were told was to make up and stop fighting. In all those years, I don't recall an adult having to step out and scold any of us.

When we visited our cousins, we included their neighbors' kids and our pack totalled 17 kids. We were ALWAYS outside. The adults were ALWAYS inside, yet we all managed to get our points across and when we fought, someone won and someone lost, but we never included the adults. None of us died and none of us suffered ill effects for life, but we did learn, all on our own, the order of life and how to handle ourselves.
That's why I said it was my experience. Of course it's not what always happens.

My experience was not the same as squabbles between siblings and cousins.

The issue of real bullying does not always get solved by the kids. Anybody that's had issues with mob mentality bullying will tell you that.

Some kids do not have packs of relatives to back them up when things get out of hand. Some kids live in cities, where the gangs of kids bullying are vicious and intend real bodily harm to the kid they are bullying. It's not realistic to say in all circumstances kids can sort out their own "order".

What do you do when there's one kid against 9, and no amount of "handling themselves" is going to keep the aggressors at bay?

Your experience is not everybody's experience. You can't say adults should never get involved. Kids are not mature enough to prevent situations from escalating to the point where kids do die, or are changed forever by the events.

At least, kids should know that they can go to the adults, if the situation gets beyond what they can deal with. If they don't, you're going to end up with serious consequences, both for the bullied and the bullies.
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Old 04-02-2011, 01:48 PM
 
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Finster,

The problem I see with your experience is that you didn't feel like you could talk to your parents. It makes a big difference to have guidance. If you had felt you could talk to your parents, you probably wouldn't have been around those children long enough for it to escalate to the shed. Your parents would have helped you learn how to form healthy boundaries, how to ignore the girl and her gang. And, yes, intervene if a child is almost molested in a shed.

We're talking about some girls whispering within earshot, making comments and teasing. We're not talking about a gang of bullies who are dragging children into sheds. But guess what? You fought them off and they never tried it again. That's proof that defending yourself goes a long way. If you had stood up for yourself sooner, you wouldn't have endured that gang for four years.

I contend it would have made a big difference in your experience if you felt you could talk to your parents and they supported in helping you learn how to cope with it from the very first encounter you had with the girl. They didn't teach you the skills. They weren't there for you as mentors. Shame on your parents.
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Old 04-02-2011, 02:23 PM
 
13,239 posts, read 9,857,843 times
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Originally Posted by Hopes View Post
Finster,

The problem I see with your experience is that you didn't feel like you could talk to your parents. It makes a big difference to have guidance. If you had felt you could talk to your parents, you probably wouldn't have been around those children long enough for it to escalate to the shed. Your parents would have helped you learn how to form healthy boundaries, how to ignore the girl and her gang. And, yes, intervene if a child is almost molested in a shed.

We're talking about some girls whispering within earshot, making comments and teasing. We're not talking about a gang of bullies who are dragging children into sheds. But guess what? You fought them off and they never tried it again. That's proof that defending yourself goes a long way. If you had stood up for yourself sooner, you wouldn't have endured that gang for four years.

I contend it would have made a big difference in your experience if you felt you could talk to your parents and they supported in helping you learn how to cope with it from the very first encounter you had with the girl. They didn't teach you the skills. They weren't there for you as mentors. Shame on your parents.
Hopes, thanks for your kind words - but I'm wondering if I explained the situation adequately. The reason I didn't tell my parent is because I came from that whole culture of "let the kids sort it out for themselves". I agree that in a lot of cases that's the best thing to do. I agree with most of what you're saying.

But my post was responding to the idea that kids will always sort out their own order, and without any negative consequences, and that adult intervention is not necessary. (I wasn't referring to the OP at all).

And I'm sorry, but I have to disagree that I could have done something about it had I stood up to her sooner. I did that in the beginning, and it only got worse, not better. I think the boys realized they had gone too far thank god. But that didn't stop the general intimidation. There was no ignoring them. They lived next door. They would come outside the house and call my name over and over until I came out.

The idea that a child can defend themselves in all situations is erroneous and somewhat dangerous.

Children need to know they can come to adults and let them know what's going on (I know that's what you mean, too) and never be under the impression that they're wussies if they don't sort out the conflict on their own.

There are circumstances where the kid is simply outnumbered and they are never going to win.
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Old 04-02-2011, 02:36 PM
 
157 posts, read 140,252 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FinsterRufus View Post
That's a lovely story. I'd like to give you my experience of what really happens when you let kids run wild without any adult interference.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FinsterRufus View Post
That's why I said it was my experience. Of course it's not what always happens.

The issue of real bullying does not always get solved by the kids. Anybody that's had issues with mob mentality bullying will tell you that.
Sorry, I took what you said, "what really happens when you let kids run wild without any adult interference" to mean what followed was the norm, which would be a contradiction to, "Of course it's not what always happens.".

Like I said, my brother and I never got along. A couple cousins and he didn't either, which means there were plenty of fights and bullying. We just learned how to take care of it on our own.

There is no mob mentality when there is subtle bullying, but kids can learn how to take care of themselves against it. Usually the 'mob' in overt bullying consists of 3 or 4 kids. Hardly a mob.

It's sad that you had an unhappy experience with the neighbor kids. Had you made the choice to stay home instead of going to their house, you may have saved yourself from some of it. Had you made them unwelcome at your home, you likely would have saved yourself from even more.
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Old 04-02-2011, 02:49 PM
 
Location: Geneva, IL
12,980 posts, read 14,528,756 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FinsterRufus View Post
And I'm sorry, but I have to disagree that I could have done something about it had I stood up to her sooner. I did that in the beginning, and it only got worse, not better. I think the boys realized they had gone too far thank god. But that didn't stop the general intimidation. There was no ignoring them. They lived next door. They would come outside the house and call my name over and over until I came out.

The idea that a child can defend themselves in all situations is erroneous and somewhat dangerous.

Children need to know they can come to adults and let them know what's going on (I know that's what you mean, too) and never be under the impression that they're wussies if they don't sort out the conflict on their own.

There are circumstances where the kid is simply outnumbered and they are never going to win.
Sorry Finster, your experience sounds awful.

I think I understand the environment you are describing. If I had come home and told my parents I was being bullied, they would have laughed in my face and called me a sissy. Luckily I wasn't, but my sister had a tough time at school, and my parents did nothing about it, and I think it has had a major impact on who she is today.

Hopefully the big difference between then and how we are raising our children now is the fact that we really talk to our children.

My kids have experienced many incidents over the years, and we talk, talk, talk about them. I will always ask how they want to handle it, and so far they have managed to deal themselves. I have been used as a tool once, and that's okay with me. When my daughter was in kindergarden, she was being picked on by a 4th grader on the school bus. She insisted that she could handle it. It transpired that her method of handling it was to tell said scumbag that I could be VERY scary when I was mad, and he didn't want to experience that. He left her alone after that. Whatever works!
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Old 04-02-2011, 03:05 PM
 
13,239 posts, read 9,857,843 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by standupandbecounted View Post
Sorry, I took what you said, "what really happens when you let kids run wild without any adult interference" to mean what followed was the norm, which would be a contradiction to, "Of course it's not what always happens.".

Like I said, my brother and I never got along. A couple cousins and he didn't either, which means there were plenty of fights and bullying. We just learned how to take care of it on our own.

There is no mob mentality when there is subtle bullying, but kids can learn how to take care of themselves against it. Usually the 'mob' in overt bullying consists of 3 or 4 kids. Hardly a mob.

It's sad that you had an unhappy experience with the neighbor kids. Had you made the choice to stay home instead of going to their house, you may have saved yourself from some of it. Had you made them unwelcome at your home, you likely would have saved yourself from even more.
Had I made the choice to stay home? What choice do you think I had to stay home? If I didn't come out of the house, she'd attack me at school the next day. They would stand outside shouting my name until I came out. They never came inside our house. She had 6 older brothers to back her up. Three of them almost raped me. You really have no idea the lengths this stuff can go to. It was certainly more than an "unhappy experience."

Some kids are outright thugs. It's more than one kid can do alone, to "save themselves from even more".

Honestly, can you blame me more for their behavior?
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Old 04-02-2011, 03:35 PM
 
157 posts, read 140,252 times
Reputation: 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by FinsterRufus View Post
When I was 11, we moved across the country to a completely different social environment. I was excited and happy about the move. We moved into a slightly rural neighborhood next door to a family of 9 kids, 6 boys and 3 girls. The boys 6 boys were the oldest, and the 3 girls the youngest.

The oldest of the 3 girls was in my class at school.
Thinking about this, you lived next door to a bunch of morons. If there were 6 boys above the age of 11 or 12, that would mean at least the oldest two or three were 17 or above. At least one would have to be 18 or older.

What were young men doing bullying an 11 year old child? Something doesn't sound right. In the seventies, what were grown men doing living at home with the parents. They must have all been retarded.
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Old 04-02-2011, 03:41 PM
 
13,239 posts, read 9,857,843 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by standupandbecounted View Post
Thinking about this, you lived next door to a bunch of morons. If there were 6 boys above the age of 11 or 12, that would mean at least the oldest two or three were 17 or above. At least one would have to be 18 or older.

What were young men doing bullying an 11 year old child? Something doesn't sound right. In the seventies, what were grown men doing living at home with the parents. They must have all been retarded.
No, they were all jockeys and rode for their father, who was a trainer. They lived there and got up at dawn to work the racehorses. They ranged from 13 to 19. (when I first moved there). I won't disagree with you that they were a bunch of morons. They terrified their horses as well. They were thug jockeys. The three girls were 11, 9 and 6.
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Old 04-02-2011, 04:03 PM
 
157 posts, read 140,252 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FinsterRufus View Post
No, they were all jockeys and rode for their father, who was a trainer. They lived there and got up at dawn to work the racehorses. They ranged from 13 to 19. (when I first moved there). I won't disagree with you that they were a bunch of morons. They terrified their horses as well. They were thug jockeys. The three girls were 11, 9 and 6.
So they all had the Short Man Syndrome and picked on little girls. You should have kicked them in the b**** and shut them up.
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