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I'd think you'd have better success in learning to deal with whomever is calling you out on your decisions - that is a confidence and relationship issue and applies to all life decisions not only parenting/nonparenting. I'd certainly think that focusing on the choices that you choose TO participate in would bolster that confidence more than focusing your time on the choices you choose NOT to participate in. Does that make sense?
You mean kind of like some (not all) people use not having children as a badge of ethical superiority?
I'll speculate that it is far less likely to fly, given the wide berth that society gives to parents with children. I'll also politely suggest that if you want to discuss that, it could make a good thread topic on its own. Perhaps something like "Why is it seen as bad to like children". It's just the opposite of the existing topic and, worded in such a way, it may attract opposite responses that might help you prove whatever point it is you are trying to make.
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Originally Posted by maciesmom
Can't we just leave it at there are jerks and annoying people everywhere. Some of whom have children and some who don't? It's not that difficult of a concept. Really.
Red herring noted.
Staying on topic isn't a difficult concept either, and the topic isn't "there are jerks everywhere". The topic is why is it seen as bad to dislike children. I'm arguing that people dislike the parents, not the children, because the parents use the children as an excuse, because in modern society (again, to the point of the topic), parents with children are granted privileges as if children are now considered a handicap worthy of special dispensation. Child-free couples and singles are not granted the same privileges, but the fallacious argument is often made, that the people with kids have some sort of morally superior reason to be excused from bad behavior (i.e., they have their hands full caring for their kids, or they are making sacrifices for their kids, or they need special scheduling for their kids, or whatever). Arguments such as these are used as excuses for behavior that would not be acceptable, were it to involve childless people.
I'll speculate that it is far less likely to fly, given the wide berth that society gives to parents with children. I'll also politely suggest that if you want to discuss that, it could make a good thread topic on its own. Perhaps something like "Why is it seen as bad to like children". It's just the opposite of the existing topic and, worded in such a way, it may attract opposite responses that might help you prove whatever point it is you are trying to make.
Red herring noted.
Staying on topic isn't a difficult concept either, and the topic isn't "there are jerks everywhere". The topic is why is it seen as bad to dislike children. I'm arguing that people dislike the parents, not the children, because the parents use the children as an excuse, because in modern society (again, to the point of the topic), parents with children are granted privileges as if children are now considered a handicap worthy of special dispensation. Child-free couples and singles are not granted the same privileges, but the fallacious argument is often made, that the people with kids have some sort of morally superior reason to be excused from bad behavior (i.e., they have their hands full caring for their kids, or they are making sacrifices for their kids, or they need special scheduling for their kids, or whatever). Arguments such as these are used as excuses for behavior that would not be acceptable, were it to involve childless people.
Well....the topic isn't "why is it seen as bad in modern society to dislike those who choose to have children" either....as long as you want to see it as a red herring. My comment wasn't intended as a red herring - threads do evolve. You chose to ignore my first response to this thread which was:
Quote:
You are free to like/dislike whomever you please. It is your behavior that counts.
As sbd says, you need to be as civil and kind as you would to anyone else. If you are both of these things there is nothing to get offended over or project about...
I don't believe that "modern society" cares who you like or dislike (in fact, I'd say that it's more acceptable now to choose to be "childfree" than it was 50 years ago) - most people do care about how you behave however. And that's true regarding other things besides children.
I'd think you'd have better success in learning to deal with whomever is calling you out on your decisions - that is a confidence and relationship issue and applies to all life decisions not only parenting/nonparenting. I'd certainly think that focusing on the choices that you choose TO participate in would bolster that confidence more than focusing your time on the choices you choose NOT to participate in. Does that make sense?
It does, but sometimes people need help in getting the confidence to deal with such people. Look at this entire forum- it's just people looking for help, yes? Looking for support that they aren't getting elsewhere in their lives. Be it with a simple question (what's your child's favorite show?) to more complicated matters (I'm divorcing my husband- how do I explain to my daughter why daddy is moving out?).
Sometimes, CF people need that same kind of support. Sometimes they have questions about when or if to tell the man they're dating that they're CF, or how to stand against family pressure. These are all legitimate concerns.
Here, if it helps, think of like parents who do attachment parenting- who might choose not to allow their children to watch television, or wear character shirts, or choose to homeschool. These are all things they've decided not to participate in, but sometimes they need support because the rest of the society DOES participate in them. So there are logistical concerns to talk about (what about when my kid goes over the neighbor's house?) and philosophical (how does television affect a developing mind?) All of these questions are legitimate. But these groups also too often become a bashing ground for those who have made a different choice, which helps no one in the long run.
So I see absolutely nothing wrong with forum or support groups. But like any forum, it can turn into more of a mosh pit for frustration- that's when you get people posting that they saw a child walk down their street (OMG!!). So again, it comes down to tone and the people participating.
So again, it comes down to tone and the people participating.
Absolutely agreed...
Everyone needs support from time to time - not arguing with that at all....I'm mainly speaking on those people who appear to create their entire identity around being CF. I'd think it would be more productive to build ones identity around something one chooses to do rather than what one chooses not to do. That's all.
Is it because people with children get offended? Or simply projection on the part of people who do like children?
We live in a child-centric society. The role of the child has been so distorted by popular culture and the media that anyone who does not adore them is considered aberrant or misguided.
Personally, I do not dislike someone simply because they are a child. But they have to prove they are worthy of my affection, just like anyone else. It is not automatic.
I'll speculate that it is far less likely to fly, given the wide berth that society gives to parents with children. I'll also politely suggest that if you want to discuss that, it could make a good thread topic on its own. Perhaps something like "Why is it seen as bad to like children". It's just the opposite of the existing topic and, worded in such a way, it may attract opposite responses that might help you prove whatever point it is you are trying to make.
Red herring noted.
Staying on topic isn't a difficult concept either, and the topic isn't "there are jerks everywhere". The topic is why is it seen as bad to dislike children. I'm arguing that people dislike the parents, not the children, because the parents use the children as an excuse, because in modern society (again, to the point of the topic), parents with children are granted privileges as if children are now considered a handicap worthy of special dispensation. Child-free couples and singles are not granted the same privileges, but the fallacious argument is often made, that the people with kids have some sort of morally superior reason to be excused from bad behavior (i.e., they have their hands full caring for their kids, or they are making sacrifices for their kids, or they need special scheduling for their kids, or whatever). Arguments such as these are used as excuses for behavior that would not be acceptable, were it to involve childless people.
And actually...if one truly wanted to "debate" this issue, one would have posted it in the Great Debates Forum and worded it a bit more neutrally than was worded - the only thoughts the OP had about it was the supposed offense parents might have. Perhaps there are all kinds of reasons why or why not. But phrasing it the way the OP did and posting it in the Parenting formum was an interesting choice.
Everyone needs support from time to time - not arguing with that at all....I'm mainly speaking on those people who appear to create their entire identity around being CF. I'd think it would be more productive to build ones identity around something one chooses to do rather than what one chooses not to do. That's all.
Oh, I completely agree with that too!! I'm asexual and CF...but I'm also a hell of a lot more than that. I've seen many people in CF groups who seem to have more no more depth than that one note. They really have invested all of their identity in hating kids- and it gets real boring, real fast
It does, but sometimes people need help in getting the confidence to deal with such people. Look at this entire forum- it's just people looking for help, yes? Looking for support that they aren't getting elsewhere in their lives. Be it with a simple question (what's your child's favorite show?) to more complicated matters (I'm divorcing my husband- how do I explain to my daughter why daddy is moving out?).
Sometimes, CF people need that same kind of support. Sometimes they have questions about when or if to tell the man they're dating that they're CF, or how to stand against family pressure. These are all legitimate concerns.
Here, if it helps, think of like parents who do attachment parenting- who might choose not to allow their children to watch television, or wear character shirts, or choose to homeschool. These are all things they've decided not to participate in, but sometimes they need support because the rest of the society DOES participate in them. So there are logistical concerns to talk about (what about when my kid goes over the neighbor's house?) and philosophical (how does television affect a developing mind?) All of these questions are legitimate. But these groups also too often become a bashing ground for those who have made a different choice, which helps no one in the long run.
So I see absolutely nothing wrong with forum or support groups. But like any forum, it can turn into more of a mosh pit for frustration- that's when you get people posting that they saw a child walk down their street (OMG!!). So again, it comes down to tone and the people participating.
But I absolutely do think it can turn into a cycle of using anger to feed anger. Or just trying to see who can say the most 'sensational' thing. You can be CF without labeling all children brats and all parents breeders. So it depends on the tone of the group, and why it was formed in the first place.
Very insightful. Good post PCat!
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I've seen many people in CF groups who seem to have more no more depth than that one note. They really have invested all of their identity in hating kids- and it gets real boring, real fast
