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Old 08-12-2007, 10:55 PM
 
Location: New England
786 posts, read 1,019,718 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luckyduck View Post
* I explained to her again that we needed to wait for a ride and that I know she wants to go home, but that we really can't leave (advice taken: talk to child like a person). That didn't work because she kept pulling on me, and the whining and crying were getting stronger. So I ignored her for a couple of minutes (advice on ignoring and let child stop on their own.) But that didn't work either.
Before we got to MGH, my wife and I took a series of classes with a local child psychiatrist (broken link)on parenting a child wth ADHD. Back then, no one had yet mentioned bipolar to us... just adhd. (turns out our boy has both). But I can remember that shrink telling us how an adhd child will try to bait us into a debate... a power struggle of sorts... "it will look like a conversation; it will sound like a conversation... but it's not really a conversation...." he would tell us. The lesson there was that reasoning wth an adhd child may not only be impractical, but may actually be counter-productive.
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Old 08-13-2007, 08:37 AM
 
158 posts, read 830,594 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles Wallace View Post
I haven't read any responses yet, but I see a connection between what he's doing and what you're doing. Do you?

I think it's often very tempting for some people to want to strike children when they're out of control because any time anyone is out of control, it's not only disturbing, but sometimes outright scary. However, your son has learned that when he's upset, hitting other people, including people who are smaller than he, is appropriate behavior. Instead of using a spatula, he uses a toy.

Other people have probably offered suggestions, but have you tried sitting with him in his room alone, holding him on your lap GENTLY until he is calm, and then asking (or guessing) about the cause?

Pretend for just a minute that he's a real person. I'm serious about that. I've said this on other posts, so sorry about repeating myself, but too many times, we think of children as somewhere near animals in terms of their ability to understand and remember events, and therefore automatically assume that their motives for acting are stupid or random and need to be disciplined by people.

However, pretend he's a person. If a friend of yours were apparently out of nowhere start hitting people around him, sometimes when annoyed and sometimes out of the blue, wouldn't you say, "Hey, man, what's the matter? What's gotten in to you?" Your response would probably not be to chase him into the room with a gun (an adult version of the "naughty stick") and lock him in until he was done.

ALMOST ALL of the time, children have meltdowns for many of the same reasons adult people have meltdowns.

Sometimes those causes can be...

* fatigue
* overstimulation
* too much sugar followed by a sugar crash
* too much violence on television or on video games
* hyperstimulation/overstimulation caused by too much television
* frustration because of a gap between what he's capable of doing and what he wants to do
* inability to communicate dissatisfaction in any other way

If you've ever felt angry or frustrated -- and I bet you have -- ask yourself how you would feel if your husband were to slap you across the rear end or threaten you with a weapon and lock you into your room until you were done. I don't know you or your husband, whom I am assuming doesn't do those things, but I'm confident in saying you might end up taking him to divorce court as soon as you could get out and get an attorney. Am I wrong?

With that in mind, what about thinking to those times when you've felt frustrated or angry? What's helped YOU? Can you teach your son the same techniques?

Just a thought. Hope it helps.
You have some good thoughts and combined that with some pretty rude comments. Since you are really trying to be helpful I will choose not to be upset

First. Me giving my child a swat on the rear or a slap on the hand is always last resort. They hit another child well before they ever recieved a swat or slap on the hand from me. The also are taught that they are the children and YES adults and children have a different set of rules. I dish out the dicipline not them. I also give many rewards and acknowlegement for good behavior.

Second I have a doggie daycare/boarding business. I definatley treat my children and doggies differently.

I am an adult. Civilized adults do not hit eachother. If my husband hit me I would leave him. I believe as last resort in spanking a child until the age of 5 then it stops. They are taught in a different way than an adult (they hit they go to jail) what behavior is acceptable and what is not.

No on here knows me so I understand all the advice on hugs first. That is always my first thought.

For your advice marked with *s the one about the sugar is the only one that might apply here Thanks I think I may have to make some changes there and see if it helps.

As to your last comment he is a child he does not think or reason the same as an adult I do not believe the same calming or reasoning methods would nessicarly work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles Wallace View Post
Listen, you sound very busy with basically being a de facto single mom for much of the week and running a doggie day care and having four children, one of them a relatively new toddler.

Could he be a child who basically needs you more than your other children have needed you? Maybe he feels shut out, alone, or frustrated and basically needs you to help him. Some people are like that -- some are independent as all get-out and if you give them an average amount of attention or interaction, they find you to be "in their face," but some people really crave that attention or interaction and push the envelope if that need isn't met.
This may well be
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles Wallace View Post
Some other suggestions here, based on what you've said...

Have you looked into dietary triggers for these tantrums? Sometimes people with ADD or who are on the spectrum of behavioral disorders including ADD have had real success with eliminating "garbage" foods such as...

1. Sugar, including the sugar in juice and sodas
2. Anything with the phrase "high fructose corn syrup"
3. Too many carbohydrates (white breads, pasta, french fries or other forms of potatoes, rice) which convert to sugar in the bloodstream
4. Processed foods (fast foods including McDonald's, chicken nuggets or other frozen/fast foods)

I think it this will be very challenging for me but is the 1st place to start. I think this week I will have to change snacks and grocery lis around for the whole household the other children are just fine and healthy and will not like the new menue but it would be impossible and unfair to tell only 1 no to a twinkie.

Thanks for the advice.
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Old 08-13-2007, 08:55 AM
 
15,564 posts, read 18,565,390 times
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My daughter pitched some fierce fits from about 18 months thru about age 7. Mostly they came at the end of a long day of daycare and anything could set her off. If I picked up her pillow and blanket when she wanted to do it, or if I insisted we leave before she had gone through her end-of-the-day rountine, it could set off a huge, miserable, crying, screaming, struggling, sweaty tantrum. I came to dread that time of day. I never hit her, although I often wanted to. When possible, I would hold her, as suggested here, or just sit in the car with her and let her wear herself out. I would also try to articulate for her what I thought she was feeling. "You must feel really tired right now and out of control. That's a scary way to feel." That seemed to help her.

I remember once thinking, in a way that felt rational, "I wonder if anyone would adopt her at this age."

Anyway, she did eventually grow out of it and is turning into a charming, self-sufficient young lady. She has always been very independent and wanted to do things for herself and I think that as she's gotten older and able to do things for herself it has reduced her frustration level.

I know that there are some kids out there who need psychiatric intervention and applaud their parents for getting them the help they need. But take heart that some kids do grow out of these tantrums. Try out some of the good advice you've been given and hang in there.
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Old 08-13-2007, 09:53 AM
 
Location: Chicago 'burbs'
1,022 posts, read 3,183,816 times
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It sounds like you are doing the very best you can in a hard situation. Stick with it! It does get better. I remember saying that the 2's weren't terrible. The 3 1/2 - 4 1/2 was the "terrible" time!
You are right. You cannot "reason" with a child, especially in the middle of a tantrum!!!! Kids are kids, not little adults.
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Old 08-13-2007, 10:47 AM
 
158 posts, read 830,594 times
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thanks, I like to hear how when behavior turns around and it is actually not phycologica;
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Old 08-13-2007, 10:50 AM
 
158 posts, read 830,594 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by treeg26 View Post
It sounds like you are doing the very best you can in a hard situation. Stick with it! It does get better. I remember saying that the 2's weren't terrible. The 3 1/2 - 4 1/2 was the "terrible" time!
You are right. You cannot "reason" with a child, especially in the middle of a tantrum!!!! Kids are kids, not little adults.
Thanks for the encouragement and understanding I think I will be more thoughtful to the foods he eats and try to give him more scheduled activities and responsibilities.
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Old 08-13-2007, 11:13 AM
 
1,428 posts, read 2,977,810 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FreezinIL View Post
I am an adult. Civilized adults do not hit eachother. If my husband hit me I would leave him. I believe as last resort in spanking a child until the age of 5 then it stops. They are taught in a different way than an adult (they hit they go to jail) what behavior is acceptable and what is not.
Then how can it be acceptable or right for a civilized adult to hit a child? A child is always smaller, incapable of mounting any kind of counterattack or reasonable defense, and can't leave or run away, as you could if your husband hit you. If an adult hits another adult, you're right -- they go to jail. Why should it be any different for hitting someone even less capable of defending or protecting himself? Many of us don't hit dogs because we think it's cruel. Perhaps you're one of them. For the same reasons, it's ethically wrong to hit a child (who is less capable of self-defense than a dog).

The thing is, your child hits. Maybe he would have hit anyway, even if you had never hit him before in his life. Some kids do. However, it sounds as if there might very well be a connection between what your child is doing and what is being done to him. It's worth thinking about.

Quote:



No on here knows me so I understand all the advice on hugs first. That is always my first thought.

For your advice marked with *s the one about the sugar is the only one that might apply here Thanks I think I may have to make some changes there and see if it helps.
I hope it does -- it's astounding how many things contain either sugar or high fructose corn syrup. Even my rye bread has that crud in it -- I had no idea until I glanced at the label. For some kids, especially those who may be somewhere on the ADD spectrum, sugar can be a real trigger, as can carbohydrates.
Quote:

As to your last comment he is a child he does not think or reason the same as an adult I do not believe the same calming or reasoning methods would nessicarly work.
I don't think there's any evidence to suggest that their thought processes are any different from those of an adult's. They have less context into which to put information, true -- but so does an adult before she knows a situation well and can "pigeonhole" data into known categories. They have often been fed untruths as fact and therefore it's no surprise when they have a difficult time telling the difference, but I would argue that an adult would have that same difficulty if they'd been raised to think that fairies and Santa were "true" and had never been told differently. They lack experience and knowledge, but not the capacity to think or reason. The more research we do into infant and child cognition, the more this fact is becoming apparent and better-understood.


Quote:
I think it this will be very challenging for me but is the 1st place to start. I think this week I will have to change snacks and grocery lis around for the whole household the other children are just fine and healthy and will not like the new menue but it would be impossible and unfair to tell only 1 no to a twinkie.

Thanks for the advice.
If anything I've said proves helpful to you or your child, I would be very glad. You sound like you care about him a great deal, enough to consider even things you have not tried, and that open-mindedness is something I wish more people (even I at times!) would give a shot.
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Old 08-13-2007, 11:17 AM
 
Location: Chicago 'burbs'
1,022 posts, read 3,183,816 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FreezinIL View Post
Thanks for the encouragement and understanding I think I will be more thoughtful to the foods he eats and try to give him more scheduled activities and responsibilities.
Diet is a great place to start! Too much sugar is not good for ANY kid.
Responsibilities will make him feel important and needed. Everyone wants to feel needed! I would use a sticker chart and have rewards for X amount of stickers. Every time you see him do something really nice to/for one of his siblings or you, give him a sticker and tell him how proud you are of him. That he is such a nice brother/son!

Have a certain consiquence for the naughty behavior and stick with it. When my daughter would have her "fits" I'd send her to her room until she could stop screaming and BE NICE. What sometimesworked with her was catching the "fit" quickly and trying to keep it from progressing. I would get down on my knee, take her hands in mine and look her in the eye. In a controlled voice I'd say "I can see you are getting upset. You know I will send you to your room if you have a fit, so why don't you tell me what is making you mad."

Remember that this is most likely a phase, and while it does need to be addressed, it won't go on forever!! Keep up the good work, Mom! You sure have your hands full!
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Old 08-13-2007, 11:30 AM
 
Location: Chicago 'burbs'
1,022 posts, read 3,183,816 times
Reputation: 748
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles Wallace View Post

The thing is, your child hits. Maybe he would have hit anyway, even if you had never hit him before in his life. Some kids do. However, it sounds as if there might very well be a connection between what your child is doing and what is being done to him. It's worth thinking about.

I have never met a single child that did not go through a stage where they would hit. Even the kids that I nannied for for 4 years (whose parents did not ever spank) hit eachother.
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Old 08-13-2007, 11:35 AM
 
1,428 posts, read 2,977,810 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by treeg26 View Post
I have never met a single child that did not go through a stage where they would hit. Even the kids that I nannied for for 4 years (whose parents did not ever spank) hit eachother.
Mine too. We never spanked her, never did anything even remotely resembling any kind of physical chastisement at all, and she still wanted to hit when she was angry. What tended to help was to lay it down as an absolute rule that "We do not hit in this family," and oddly enough, it worked. Not every time (Anyone know anything that works every time?), but it had the force of a Moses-like commandment that I didn't think it would necessarily have. (I followed the advice of someone else on this one, and it worked.) I don't know about everyone's child, but my DD is one of those people who's always been a stickler for rules, so this worked reasonably well for her.

Good to know it's not just my child.
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