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Old 08-13-2007, 12:09 PM
 
158 posts, read 832,289 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles Wallace View Post
Then how can it be acceptable or right for a civilized adult to hit a child? A child is always smaller, incapable of mounting any kind of counterattack or reasonable defense, and can't leave or run away, as you could if your husband hit you. If an adult hits another adult, you're right -- they go to jail. Why should it be any different for hitting someone even less capable of defending or protecting himself? Many of us don't hit dogs because we think it's cruel. Perhaps you're one of them. For the same reasons, it's ethically wrong to hit a child (who is less capable of self-defense than a dog).

The difference is this. There is a HUGE difference between spanking and hitting or beating something. I am too old to be spanked If my husband spanked me I would either think he would need to see a shrink. If he actually beat me or hit me with full force (which is what most adults would do if they are abusive rather than slap there wifes hand or slap them on the rear with a "naughty stick") well anyway you see there is a big difference. If you can not see the difference well then it is a darn good thing you do not spank or hit your children.

No I never spank a dog. thier thought process is way different than a humans.


I hope it does -- it's astounding how many things contain either sugar or high fructose corn syrup. Even my rye bread has that crud in it -- I had no idea until I glanced at the label. For some kids, especially those who may be somewhere on the ADD spectrum, sugar can be a real trigger, as can carbohydrates.
So ADD children/people usually have problems handling that more so that those with out?

I don't think there's any evidence to suggest that their thought processes are any different from those of an adult's. They have less context into which to put information, true -- but so does an adult before she knows a situation well and can "pigeonhole" data into known categories. They have often been fed untruths as fact and therefore it's no surprise when they have a difficult time telling the difference, but I would argue that an adult would have that same difficulty if they'd been raised to think that fairies and Santa were "true" and had never been told differently. They lack experience and knowledge, but not the capacity to think or reason. The more research we do into infant and child cognition, the more this fact is becoming apparent and better-understood.

I just do not agree with that. Even men and women have different sized brain pieces (pieces not sure what to call it lobes?) well a childs brain is still developing and will not or can not reason the way an adult could. I know I have read studies but do not remember any one in paticular to quote to back up what I have said so I guess this is a dead end dicussion on my part.





If anything I've said proves helpful to you or your child, I would be very glad. You sound like you care about him a great deal, enough to consider even things you have not tried, and that open-mindedness is something I wish more people (even I at times!) would give a shot.
Thank you I get the feeling your a very awesome caring parent even though you and I do not exactly agree on every detail. THanks for your imput it is very much appreciated

Sorry, I tried to respond to each individual comment like you previously did but it did not work out quit right so my responses are mixed in with yours. I hope I dont confuse every one. Sorry
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Old 08-13-2007, 02:17 PM
 
1,428 posts, read 2,987,131 times
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Quote:
The difference is this. There is a HUGE difference between spanking and hitting or beating something.
But what is that difference? Seriously, what is the dividing line between a spanking and a beating?
Quote:

I am too old to be spanked If my husband spanked me I would either think he would need to see a shrink. If he actually beat me or hit me with full force (which is what most adults would do if they are abusive rather than slap there wifes hand or slap them on the rear with a "naughty stick") well anyway you see there is a big difference.
The major difference that I see is that you'd be able to do any number of things if your husband struck you so as to cause pain:

* Run away permanently
* Hit him back
* Threaten or attack him with a weapon
* Call 911

On the whole, a child cannot do all of those things. Depending on the age of the child, some children cannot do any of those things. To me, that's the big difference: that a child has less capability of defending him- or herself and less ability to take revenge or leave.

Quote:


No I never spank a dog. thier thought process is way different than a humans.
But wait -- for the same reason you gave above (that their thought process is different), you said it was acceptable to spank a child. See? Here's what you said below: "well a childs brain is still developing and will not or can not reason the way an adult could." By that very same logic, shouldn't you...

* Spank BOTH children and dogs, since both have thought processes different from a human adult's

OR

* Spank neither one?

Quote:
So ADD children/people usually have problems handling that more so that those with out?
From what I understand about it, yeah. Sugar gives everyone (esp. kids) a major sugar rush. I think that for kids with ADD that sugar can be like adding gasoline to a fire.
Quote:

I just do not agree with that. Even men and women have different sized brain pieces (pieces not sure what to call it lobes?)
Yes, relative to each other. Relative to their individual body sizes, women's brains are slightly bigger than men's. But size isn't everything. Nevertheless, no one would argue -- well, no one in this century, I hope -- that women are incapable of thinking logically, or that men are incapable of thinking logically.
Quote:
well a childs brain is still developing and will not or can not reason the way an adult could. I know I have read studies but do not remember any one in paticular to quote to back up what I have said so I guess this is a dead end dicussion on my part.
They aren't identical, but I think that the basic structures are there. Children can understand cause and effect, for example, at a surprisingly early age (earlier than was at first thought), and have a number of the most fundamental logical reasoning systems "online," as it were. And like I said above with the dogs, let's say you're right. Then shouldn't children be given the same or similar treatment as dogs are?
Quote:



Thank you I get the feeling your a very awesome caring parent even though you and I do not exactly agree on every detail. THanks for your imput it is very much appreciated
Thanks for your kind words. It's been a pleasure disagreeing with you.
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Old 08-13-2007, 02:36 PM
 
Location: Venice, Fl
1,497 posts, read 3,276,533 times
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Have you tried to make him a part of everyday things around the house ? Give positive reinforcement for a job well done, give him things to do that have reward ? Whacking him with a plastic spoon justifies his negative behavior and may even make it worse. He may be acting out because he doesn't have enough time with you and or your husband. Lashing out at the other kids may be a direct result of not getting enough of what he needs for attention. Attention to a kid is attention, regardless if it is negative attention he is still getting attention. Try to spend 1 on 1 time with him away from the other kids even if just 10-15 minutes a day. Don't reinforce his negative behavior by whacking his butt with the spoon, sit him on the bottom stair for 10 minutes and firmly tell him why he is there. When he does something positive go out of your way to reinforce the positive behavior. Negative behavior will breed negative behavior. If you react with positive reinforcement he will be more inclined to act with more positive behavior. Don't be affraid to let him know that you and your husband are in charge, minus the spoon . Too many parents let the kids rule the roost and forget that they are the boss.
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Old 08-14-2007, 07:00 AM
 
158 posts, read 832,289 times
Reputation: 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Man Winter View Post
Have you tried to make him a part of everyday things around the house ? Give positive reinforcement for a job well done, give him things to do that have reward ? Whacking him with a plastic spoon justifies his negative behavior and may even make it worse. He may be acting out because he doesn't have enough time with you and or your husband. Lashing out at the other kids may be a direct result of not getting enough of what he needs for attention. Attention to a kid is attention, regardless if it is negative attention he is still getting attention. Try to spend 1 on 1 time with him away from the other kids even if just 10-15 minutes a day. Don't reinforce his negative behavior by whacking his butt with the spoon, sit him on the bottom stair for 10 minutes and firmly tell him why he is there. When he does something positive go out of your way to reinforce the positive behavior. Negative behavior will breed negative behavior. If you react with positive reinforcement he will be more inclined to act with more positive behavior. Don't be affraid to let him know that you and your husband are in charge, minus the spoon . Too many parents let the kids rule the roost and forget that they are the boss.

He has not actually been spanked in quit a while. Latley it works like this. If he hits or purposely hurts some one I will tell him he has a 4 minute time out. If he screams (which is incredibly loud) or kicks the walls I tell him he needs to go to his room and close the door for his time out. When he tells me no and refuses I hold up the plastic naughty stick and tell him to get to his room or he will get a smack on his rear. He has chosen to go to his room latley for his 4 minutes. I am not going to phyically drag him in there he needs to listen when I say so even if it is because of the plastic spoon.

Time spent with a child. Just how much time am I supposed to spend with him? I chose to work in my home in order to raise my kids myself. I have him help with walking and feeding the dogs I watch. I also do play in the yard with him catch and games in the house. If he is bored I will offer to read to him or he can follow me around while I am doing laundry or other daily chores and help where he can. I have 5 children. we rotate with each one and I take each one out alone for about 2 hours and we bike ride or go to pet stores or the park and I will get them lunch or snack and it is all about only that child for 2 hrs. so with 5 I do one or 2 a week on my husbands morning off.

I originally told him if he could go one day with out hitting some one it would be his turn next for special time out. I kept reminding him all day. HE could not do it . I also offered special rewards for not throwing a tantrum and when they would start I would tell him "remember to control your self so we can go bike riding this evening" he could not do that either. All that did was at the end of the day make him feel like a failure and he would cry that he could not do it.

So when I see him control him self when normally he might hit I just give him a big hug and let him know I noticed his good big boy behavior. But at some point in the day there are still always tantums and him hitting
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Old 08-14-2007, 07:21 AM
 
158 posts, read 832,289 times
Reputation: 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles Wallace View Post
But what is that difference? Seriously, what is the dividing line between a spanking and a beating?

The major difference that I see is that you'd be able to do any number of things if your husband struck you so as to cause pain:

* Run away permanently
* Hit him back
* Threaten or attack him with a weapon
* Call 911

On the whole, a child cannot do all of those things. Depending on the age of the child, some children cannot do any of those things. To me, that's the big difference: that a child has less capability of defending him- or herself and less ability to take revenge or leave.


But wait -- for the same reason you gave above (that their thought process is different), you said it was acceptable to spank a child. See? Here's what you said below: "well a childs brain is still developing and will not or can not reason the way an adult could." By that very same logic, shouldn't you...

* Spank BOTH children and dogs, since both have thought processes different from a human adult's

OR

* Spank neither one?

From what I understand about it, yeah. Sugar gives everyone (esp. kids) a major sugar rush. I think that for kids with ADD that sugar can be like adding gasoline to a fire.

Yes, relative to each other. Relative to their individual body sizes, women's brains are slightly bigger than men's. But size isn't everything. Nevertheless, no one would argue -- well, no one in this century, I hope -- that women are incapable of thinking logically, or that men are incapable of thinking logically.

They aren't identical, but I think that the basic structures are there. Children can understand cause and effect, for example, at a surprisingly early age (earlier than was at first thought), and have a number of the most fundamental logical reasoning systems "online," as it were. And like I said above with the dogs, let's say you're right. Then shouldn't children be given the same or similar treatment as dogs are?

Thanks for your kind words. It's been a pleasure disagreeing with you.
Exactley. A child should not defend himself or call the police. They are not getting a beating. Just a spanking and there is a difference. between the 2. To me a spank is a stinging slap on the rear or hand.

Actually getting hit is and enraged person punching kicking hitting with all there might causing lasting physical pain and bruising. That is different from a spanking.

You know before I had children I had the idea that they would never need to be spanked. All my children except this one really only got a slap on the hand or a swat on rear 2 times a year. This 4 th child his name is Jake is just off the wall with obnoxious unruley disrespectful behavior. Not all the time but on and off through out the day.

He is the kind of kid that the parents you hear about on the news lock in a cage, beat to death or drowned. I think that Jake is the kind of kid that that happens to. They get parents that are unstable in some what and can not handle this type of child. I think he would not be around if he got some other parent. I thank God for sending him to me because I can see his real self and kind heart through all this craziness. It saddens me to think of children like him who are truely abused or killed. Anyway maybe I could do better with how I handle or dicipline him but like I said a spanking is always last resort. He must get a consequense for his action and a consequense that he does not like. For my daughters I put dollys in time out or when they were old enough they wrote sentenses. They accepted there punishment. When Jake does not that is where the spanking (not beating) comes in. If I put his toy in time out he will some times tear rooms apart throwing things all over and at people what ever he can get his hands on. If I hold up the naughty stick now he will usually stop.
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Old 08-14-2007, 07:41 AM
 
158 posts, read 832,289 times
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I have 3 brothers. I grew up in a loud chaotic scary abusive household. I became pretty much like a mute. In school at home every where. I just did not want to or was afraid to speak. I had no spark. My parents complained that I was not bubbly enough. I was always dreaming of the day I could just be on my own.

Now I have my own family. I will not say I never enjoyed going out to the club dancing the night away. But in my home everyday life I long for a quiet calm peaceful life. Instead it is noisy and chaotic. I feel it is all because of Jake. I have to yell not to yell because I am mad it is just that literally no one would hear me if I spoke in a regular tone. I hate yelling and chaos but I feel like I am living in it.

I wish some one could say if you do this or change that your life will be calm and peaceful and you wont have to yell anymore or spank Jake. I love my kids more than life and I love them all the same but our day to day life for me is so very hard and not at all what I want the "tone" of it to be. I wish my kids could look back and say my mommy was always had a calm gentle way about her but I dont think that is how I am. I just do not know how to be like that with all this craziness. The only time anyone stops is when I am pushed beyond my limit and I just cant do anything but cry because sometimes it is so noisy and crazy.

If any one has been where I am and has any anwers or knows a book to help me that would be just great. I really feel this is all happening because Jake is causing us all complete and utter upset he upsets the whole family.
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Old 08-14-2007, 09:01 AM
 
Location: Princeton-area, New Jersey
113 posts, read 740,395 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FreezinIL View Post
I wish some one could say if you do this or change that your life will be calm and peaceful and you wont have to yell anymore or spank Jake. I love my kids more than life and I love them all the same but our day to day life for me is so very hard and not at all what I want the "tone" of it to be. I wish my kids could look back and say my mommy was always had a calm gentle way about her but I dont think that is how I am. I just do not know how to be like that with all this craziness. The only time anyone stops is when I am pushed beyond my limit and I just cant do anything but cry because sometimes it is so noisy and crazy.

If any one has been where I am and has any anwers or knows a book to help me that would be just great. I really feel this is all happening because Jake is causing us all complete and utter upset he upsets the whole family.
FreezinIL, I don't think anyone has any answers here, but what I can offer is my understanding to you as a mom. It sounds like you have exhausted yourself both in your home and here on this forum, trying to explain yourself-- which you don't need to. Some of the last posters, I think, have aggravated your situation-- forcing you to explain the difference between a spank and a beating-- when the bottom line is, you have a difficult child to deal with. To define a spank and a beating is a very subjective thing, and this argument will just go in circles.

You have already conveyed how much you love your boy, and that is the most important tool you need to get through everything.

One thing that came to mind was perhaps you can do something for YOU, like yoga, taking a walk alone, or perhaps window shopping away from the kids-- even for 15-30 minutes. Take some *YOU* time out. You've acknowledged that you don't want your kids to remember you as a mean mommy, so that is something you can start with. A friend of mine (also a mom) wakes up 1/2 hour before everyone else to write her novel, and that is her time out. I know that sounds like more work (to wake up earlier), but it has helped her tremendously to keep her sanity.

In the beginning of this thread, many posters have come up with helpful suggestions. Perhaps you can try some, once a week or once a day. When school comes around, ask the school for an evaluation. If that does not help, seek outside help in evaluating your son. Or, as someone suggested, perhaps he will grow out of it by age 7. Ultimately, that will take a lot of long-term work, but it will be worth the wait in the end.

Whatever it takes, take it one day at a time and know that there are people out here who understand you, and support you (even on an online forum!) Good luck with everything.
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Old 08-14-2007, 09:54 AM
 
Location: Chicago 'burbs'
1,022 posts, read 3,195,262 times
Reputation: 748
I'm not sure if this has already been asked, but have you talked to your son's doctor about his behavior? It would be covered by insurance and maybe they could help. I'm not saying medication, but maybe they could refer you to someone else that would be covered by your insurance that could help.
I know what you mean about wanting to live in a peaceful house. There were so many times when my kids were younger that I felt the same way. Always loud, chaos and yelling! And I only had 2 kids!!!
Will he attend pre-school this fall? My public school had a pre-school that had discounted rates (I know you said $ was an issue). They got to know my daughter before she started Kindergarden and she was later diagnosed with ADD. These teachers deal with so many kids and so many different behaviors that they may have some great tips for you!!!
It sounds like you are doing everything you possibly can and you feel you are in a losing battle. I'm so sorry! I think that luckyduck had a great point. Make sure you get some "me" time. It helps you be a better, more patient Mom when you get some time to yourself to "recharge" your batteries!
Another thing to look into is maybe a Moms group at a local church. I don't know if you are religious. I joined a mom's bible study that had child care during it and IT WAS WONDERFUL. You get support from other moms with issues with the kids, and an hour and a half of ADULT time! Mine met on Wednesday mornings. I highly recommend it!
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Old 08-14-2007, 12:01 PM
 
158 posts, read 832,289 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luckyduck View Post
FreezinIL, I don't think anyone has any answers here, but what I can offer is my understanding to you as a mom. It sounds like you have exhausted yourself both in your home and here on this forum, trying to explain yourself-- which you don't need to. Some of the last posters, I think, have aggravated your situation-- forcing you to explain the difference between a spank and a beating-- when the bottom line is, you have a difficult child to deal with. To define a spank and a beating is a very subjective thing, and this argument will just go in circles.

You have already conveyed how much you love your boy, and that is the most important tool you need to get through everything.

One thing that came to mind was perhaps you can do something for YOU, like yoga, taking a walk alone, or perhaps window shopping away from the kids-- even for 15-30 minutes. Take some *YOU* time out. You've acknowledged that you don't want your kids to remember you as a mean mommy, so that is something you can start with. A friend of mine (also a mom) wakes up 1/2 hour before everyone else to write her novel, and that is her time out. I know that sounds like more work (to wake up earlier), but it has helped her tremendously to keep her sanity.

In the beginning of this thread, many posters have come up with helpful suggestions. Perhaps you can try some, once a week or once a day. When school comes around, ask the school for an evaluation. If that does not help, seek outside help in evaluating your son. Or, as someone suggested, perhaps he will grow out of it by age 7. Ultimately, that will take a lot of long-term work, but it will be worth the wait in the end.
.
Going in circles about spanking and beating, your right I guess that is what is going on.

I get up every other morning at 5am and get to dressed ready and to the park by 5:30 or 6am and roller blade the path for 1 hr then get back in time to get every one fed and changed and all that other fun stuff.

Most of the day is pretty good as far as how I handle when my darling Jake acts up. The others of course do too just not as extreme. Well anyway between the hours of 5pm and 7pm my nerves are shot and every one in the house seems to go bonkers. Those are the witching hours around here.

Yes, I will try a few things mentioned and also hope in time he will grow out of it or I will be come more like the mom I want to be and have a better handle on it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by treeg26 View Post
I'm not sure if this has already been asked, but have you talked to your son's doctor about his behavior? It would be covered by insurance and maybe they could help. I'm not saying medication, but maybe they could refer you to someone else that would be covered by your insurance that could help.
I know what you mean about wanting to live in a peaceful house. There were so many times when my kids were younger that I felt the same way. Always loud, chaos and yelling! And I only had 2 kids!!!
Will he attend pre-school this fall? My public school had a pre-school that had discounted rates (I know you said $ was an issue). They got to know my daughter before she started Kindergarden and she was later diagnosed with ADD. These teachers deal with so many kids and so many different behaviors that they may have some great tips for you!!!
It sounds like you are doing everything you possibly can and you feel you are in a losing battle. I'm so sorry! I think that luckyduck had a great point. Make sure you get some "me" time. It helps you be a better, more patient Mom when you get some time to yourself to "recharge" your batteries!
Another thing to look into is maybe a Moms group at a local church. I don't know if you are religious. I joined a mom's bible study that had child care during it and IT WAS WONDERFUL. You get support from other moms with issues with the kids, and an hour and a half of ADULT time! Mine met on Wednesday mornings. I highly recommend it!

Yes I talked to my sons doctor and also a phyciatrist and basically both said stick with time outs and some other stuff that is impossible to to with all the kids I have and that there could be a problem but he is too young to diagnose.

I have tried to join bible studies many times. Funny though I would never be able to attend more than 15 min and I would get called to the daycare and have to leave they could not handle my child. So until the last six months I have been volunteering to work in the daycare. Now I am taking a break I am tired. I will be moving Florida next yr and will try to find a moms group there but now I have not found one here and figured I will just wait till FL.

I am not going to send him to school next yr I will hold him back hoping to help him gain better self control and confidence but think I will see if the school will offer some help and pre-school if they think he should have it.

Thanks for understanding luckduck and tree
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Old 08-14-2007, 01:12 PM
 
1,428 posts, read 2,987,131 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FreezinIL View Post
I originally told him if he could go one day with out hitting some one it would be his turn next for special time out. I kept reminding him all day. HE could not do it . I also offered special rewards for not throwing a tantrum and when they would start I would tell him "remember to control your self so we can go bike riding this evening" he could not do that either. All that did was at the end of the day make him feel like a failure and he would cry that he could not do it.

So when I see him control him self when normally he might hit I just give him a big hug and let him know I noticed his good big boy behavior. But at some point in the day there are still always tantums and him hitting
Maybe he has no way of controlling himself. Could you ask him to identify how he feels just before the tantrum? Could you help him to identify trigger situations which tend to set off a tantrum? When they're just about to happen, could you teach him how to calm down? (Sit on your lap, rock gently, take a bath -- whatever works.)
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