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Thank you to everyone who has participated so far and taken this "idea" I had and treated it the way it was intended to be treated, merely a topic for discussion, not a critique of anyone's choices.
Hopes - If we do go forward with such an adoption, I would most certainly NOT choose a child with RAD if it was a known condition. However, knowing that upfront is almost impossible, which is why we are researching as much as we can about not only the process, but the stories of what adoptive parents are dealing with once home. There are many great blogs out there where people share their stories, the good and the bad, the pleasure and the pain. If we were to do this, we would be going into it with eyes wide open.
We also need to consider the impact such a decision would have on the three children we already have. I think it would be incredibly unfair of us to adopt another child if doing so meant taking away our finite time and resources from them to heavily invest in doing it. It may ultimately be something we don't look to do until our children are out of school and more established. As it is it may take us that long to reach a position of financial strength where we would have the resources to do it properly. Thankfully we are both young enough that waiting until the youngest of our brood is in her late teens would not preclude us from moving ahead with an adoption.
nana053 - I respect your opinions and experienced based knowledge on the topic. I in fact only mentioned autism at all because it was listed as one of the conditions that can be confused with RAD when trying to reach a diagnosis in school age children. Perhaps its inclusion was a poor choice on my part, but all the literature I've read draws parellels between the autism spectrum and children with RAD. Not that one equals the other, just that they present similarly in some cases and the ultimate "root" cause of both is still undetermined.
Just a bit of clarification...
I was not trying to imply that there was a link between RAD and the other diagnoses I listed, just that perhaps they share a common component in causation from a childs early experiences and their bonding.
I was also not implying in anyway that one causes the other or that the conditions are universally caused by a single factor. A sibling pair raised by abusive and absent parents and later placed in an orphanage may result in one having RAD and one not having it. Similarly a sibling pair raised in the exact same healthy environment may result in one having ADHD and one not. There is certainly something else at play in terms of predisposition or vulnerability.
It is that fact that I sort of clued in on and made me go, hmm. Essentially the "hypothesis", if we want to call it that, would be that the rise in conditions such as ADHD, ODD (maybe autism?) could be the result of the greater reliance we have these days on center based care. This care shares at least some components with orphanage based care. While the care is not nearly as neglectful as what many orphans who develop RAD experience, perhaps people who are predisposed to ADHD, ODD, autism, etc. may have it triggered by being in a day care environment. It's as good a guess as any.
While the current "poll" may not support the idea, there may simply be people who have chosen not to participate as another poster implied. I do however, have at least two anecdotal stories of people where it may seem to fit.
Child A was the result of a second marriage between both parents. Mother is in her 40's and father is in his late 50's. Mom and dad are both medical professionals and work long hours. Child was in a daycare setting from an early age (6 weeks) and was often take care of by a revolving group of people, generally their older siblings (some in their late 20's). Child has had "issues" noted since they were around 3 years old that have only grown worse as they have gotten older. The child is diagnosed with ADHD and ODD and their parents are now getting divorced and the behavior has taken a massive turn for the worse.
Child B was born into tragedy. They were born on the EXACT date that marked the one year anniversary of the murder of their two year old sibling. By the time the child was 6 months old the murder trial was in full swing. Essentially the murder and the trial dominated the lives of the entire family for the first year of the childs life. They were routinely cared for by random family members and close friends. Both parents also work and the child was placed in the alternating care of either his disabled (but mobile and functional) grandfather or into center based care. By the age of 3, the child was diagnosed on the autism spectrum and has been receiving help.
So, I guess my point would be, if we want to accept that there is a genetic predisposition to such conditions (something I agree with); would it also not be fair to accept that there may be an environmental/emotional component related to bonding and care in the early years. If we are to accept that food dyes and preservatives could be causes, this emotional component seems just as valid as one of a list of possible causes.
I'm not a medical professional, my degree is in Political Science and Economics. I do however work as an analyst. It is my job to interpret data, look at trends, make predictions and give advice. If I look at a chart showing the increases in ADHD, ODD and autism against a chart showing the increasing percentage of two working parent families and the use of center based/non-family care, there are some strong parallel trends.
So, I guess my point would be, if we want to accept that there is a genetic predisposition to such conditions (something I agree with); would it also not be fair to accept that there may be an environmental/emotional component related to bonding and care in the early years. If we are to accept that food dyes and preservatives could be causes, this emotional component seems just as valid as one of a list of possible causes.
I'm not a medical professional, my degree is in Political Science and Economics. I do however work as an analyst. It is my job to interpret data, look at trends, make predictions and give advice. If I look at a chart showing the increases in ADHD, ODD and autism against a chart showing the increasing percentage of two working parent families and the use of center based/non-family care, there are some strong parallel trends.
One problem with your analysis is that the increase (at least for autism) is somewhat out of proportion. The increases that are shown are partly the result of non-diagnosis for many adults who would have been diagnosed if they had been born now (like my son). The increase also has partly to do with a *decrease* in dxes of mental retardation as kids who would have been dxed with that in my day (1950s) often get a diagnosis of autism now.
ADHD also was simply not dxed years ago. Kids were called lazy or bad instead. That does not mean they were not ADHD, just that we now have a better handle on why they act the way they do.
I am familiar with ODD, but not with how it is dxed, so I cannot speak to that one. I am familiar with RAD because of experience with overseas adoptions and kids who were in very bad orphanages, but I do not think that autism usually presents like RAD does. There may be a few similarities, but there are many more dissimilarities.
Autism, in particular, has a large spectrum of behaviors and most of them are not at all like those presented by RAD children. Children *can* have both dxes. Most parents of autistic children are well bonded to their children, but there are patterns of difficulty in communication between the child and parent. That's not the same as RAD where children are not bonding. My grandson has always been bonded to his mom and most of the parents on my autism board say the same thing. Autistic people have trouble communicating and seeing social cues, but that does not mean they are not empathetic. They simply do not know that others think differently from them. I am not sure how RAD kids would fare with the *Sally Ann* test which most autistic children fail until they are older. RAD is also relatively rare compared to autism.
Here is a book that illustrates how children's brains and development are affected by violence, abuse, chemical dependence, etc. While its main focus is on exposure to abuse and violence, the explanations of child brain development from 0-3 are excellent. Worth it just for that information alone.
I'm not a medical professional, my degree is in Political Science and Economics. I do however work as an analyst. It is my job to interpret data, look at trends, make predictions and give advice. If I look at a chart showing the increases in ADHD, ODD and autism against a chart showing the increasing percentage of two working parent families and the use of center based/non-family care, there are some strong parallel trends.
There a problem when economists only compare two things without taking into consideration other factors. Try finding another comparison to the rise. For examples: changes that occurred in the education system, hormones in our cow milk, development of formula, decreases in breast feeding, decreases in eating whole foods/increase of eating processed foods. I believe all of those factors occurred around the same time. I'm sure there are others. Compare each of those factors to the increases in ADHD, ODD and autism and see if one of those charts don't more accurately reflect a correlation. Also, it very well could be a number of factors.
Stats for Social Sciences 101: Correlation (two things occurring in the same time period, for example) does not imply causation (one causing the other).
However, your question is an empirical one - I am curious if anyone has published on the topic.
There a problem when economists only compare two things without taking into consideration other factors. Try finding another comparison to the rise. For examples: changes that occurred in the education system, hormones in our cow milk, development of formula, decreases in breast feeding, decreases in eating whole foods/increase of eating processed foods. I believe all of those factors occurred around the same time. I'm sure there are others. Compare each of those factors to the increases in ADHD, ODD and autism and see if one of those charts don't more accurately reflect a correlation. Also, it very well could be a number of factors.
Quote:
Originally Posted by eastwesteastagain
Stats for Social Sciences 101: Correlation (two things occurring in the same time period, for example) does not imply causation (one causing the other).
However, your question is an empirical one - I am curious if anyone has published on the topic.
Thank you both for those posts. You are absolutely correct that correlation does not equal causation. There are MANY factors that seem to mirror trends in the diagnoses of the conditions we have been talking about and lots of research into those other factors as well. To my knowledge no one has published anything on the topic, but the correlation was compelling enough to make me want to ask the question. Who knows if there is something there or not.
It's been an interesting discussion so far, though it seems many may not be comfortable participating. My own "hunch" is that it is simply foolish to not account for early relationship and bonding development as a possible component in some of these diagnoses, especially since we are so ready to include other environmental factors. Perhaps, the subject is simply taboo. No one wants to be told that their childs ADHD was perhaps caused in part or triggered by being in day care.
No one wants to be told that their childs ADHD was perhaps caused in part or triggered by being in day care.
I could never be in such denial. I blame myself for everything. I blamed my son's learning disability on not boiling his formula water, even though I did the same with his older sibling and there is a strong family history of learning disorders on both sides of the family tree. Don't even get me started on how I blame myself for his anxiety disorders. Even though I know that's also due to a strong genetic link to my sister, I still think I could have tried one more type of therapy, one more type of doctor. Of course, I keep all of these feelings to myself IRL but there is no denial inside me.
Thank you both for those posts. You are absolutely correct that correlation does not equal causation. There are MANY factors that seem to mirror trends in the diagnoses of the conditions we have been talking about and lots of research into those other factors as well. To my knowledge no one has published anything on the topic, but the correlation was compelling enough to make me want to ask the question. Who knows if there is something there or not.
It's been an interesting discussion so far, though it seems many may not be comfortable participating. My own "hunch" is that it is simply foolish to not account for early relationship and bonding development as a possible component in some of these diagnoses, especially since we are so ready to include other environmental factors. Perhaps, the subject is simply taboo. No one wants to be told that their childs ADHD was perhaps caused in part or triggered by being in day care.
It is an interesting empirical question. I am going to throw out an equally unproven hypothesis, which is that rates of children in daycare have increased as more families have 2 parents working or single parents working to make ends meet at the same time as the public has become more aware of diagnoses such as ADHD and autism. Perhaps having more professionals' eyes on children allows for quicker/earlier identification of symptoms. Perhaps they are being over-diagnosed now or perhaps they were being under-diagnosed before the public became as aware of them. In the 90s, ADHD advocacy and research was huge in social science fields; similar to autism in this past decade.
Given the severity of circumstances typically associated with RAD, I lean towards the opinion that early daycare of the standard held in the US is unlikely to be a causal factor. The RAD clients I saw were, to a one, adopted children from Eastern Europe (though that I'm sure had something to do with my geographic location on the west coast at the time) who underwent severe deprivation and isolation as infants and young children.
Also, given the many genetic and biological factors involved with autism and ADHD, I would suspect that daycare again would not be causal. I'm stretching my memory here a bit, but I do not recall ever studying that there was a relationship between parental bonding/setting of child care and the development of ADHD symptoms. Typically, environmental etiology studies have found relationships between increased ADHD rates with exposure to chemicals/toxins. And then of course, we have genetic factors, in utero environment, birth complications, etc. Especially with ADHD, which has been studied from every angle under the sun, I would expect readily available research if there was a relationship between early parental bonding and ADHD symptoms.
Then again, my bias tends to be more behavioral and not attachment-theory oriented, so take my opinion with a grain of salt.
I could never be in such denial. I blame myself for everything. I blamed my son's learning disability on not boiling his formula water, even though I did the same with his older sibling and there is a strong family history of learning disorders on both sides of the family tree. Don't even get me started on how I blame myself for his anxiety disorders. Even though I know that's also due to a strong genetic link to my sister, I still think I could have tried one more type of therapy, one more type of doctor. Of course, I keep all of these feelings to myself IRL but there is no denial inside me.
Interesting. My initial reaction as a parent is to blame myself for any issues/problems my kids have no matter how unreasonable that reaction may be. Certainly their problem must be caused by something I did wrong...right?
However, there seems to be another group that just as readily places blame upon everyone else. That group tends to refuse to believe that there could possible by ANYTHING they did that could cause a problem.
Interesting. My initial reaction as a parent is to blame myself for any issues/problems my kids have no matter how unreasonable that reaction may be. Certainly their problem must be caused by something I did wrong...right?
However, there seems to be another group that just as readily places blame upon everyone else. That group tends to refuse to believe that there could possible by ANYTHING they did that could cause a problem.
Although I think it's a normal parenting reaction to feel both justified and unjustified guilt and responsibility, in general, I think looking at the likelihood of a parenting choice being related to an outcome is hugely important to keep us focused on reality.
While it may be normative to experience guilt as an initial reaction, it isn't all that helpful if indeed the parents' behavior that they are feeling guilty about is not related to the issue/problem, you know what I mean? If the guilt is justified by the facts, then by all means, do something about the problem behavior. Too much in one direction or the other can be problematic, IMO, particularly when it comes to etiology. ETA: A much better case can be made for environmental factors (such as parenting or other close relationships) being involved in maintenance of problem behaviors.
For example, if I had a child with schizophrenia, I could feel guilty until the cows come home that I did something to cause it, but it still wouldn't change that schizophrenia is highly genetically and biologically based (and the schizophrenogenic mother theory hasn't had empirical support, well, ever!). This doesn't mean I would be exempt from responsibility for how I handled the associated problems that crop up, and the parenting decisions I made after the fact, just that it wouldn't make sense to feel guilty about something that was caused by factors outside of parenting.
Last edited by eastwesteastagain; 08-22-2011 at 12:57 PM..
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