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Old 09-22-2011, 11:20 AM
 
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I can't count how many instances I had to get on someone else's child at a park or playground for pushing around younger children, and their parents were right there watching. Once I saw a 2 boys of about 7 or 8 not letting the little kids go down the slide, and when my 4 year old tried to step over one's legs and go down anyway, he pushed her and she stumbled backward. I jumped up and started shouting at them. Their parents, who were standing not far from me, just told them it was time to go, without asking what happened or making their kids apologize. Another time at a water park, I observed a boy who was standing at the top of a slide spitting on little kids coming down. Once again, a boy old enough to know better, at least 9, too big to be in the little kids section anyway. I let him have it. Everybody got quiet, then I realized how loud I must have been. I waited for a parent to come up to me and at least ask why I was yelling at their child, but no one did. Then I saw him run to a man who was sitting quietly and disinterested right next to me. I was amazed. If I saw my child behaving like this, there's no way I'd just sit there, and if by some chance I missed something and saw another adult correcting her, I'd be right there to see what was going on.

It either seems to be the attitude of "MY child would NEVER" or simply not giving a damn. Either way, even a well behaved child will figure out that he or she can do whatever they want to whomever they want with no consequences, and that's why there are so many bullies.
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Old 09-22-2011, 11:26 AM
 
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Originally Posted by 4sankofa View Post
Unfortunately, it's a very thin line these days. Kids are taught not to confront but to tell an adult versus back in the day kids were taught if someone pushes you - push them back
It is a sticky wicket because of the zero tolerance policy at schools. A kid can get in trouble for even defending themselves.

But your lesson is the right one, and I learned it the hard way. A few years ago, my son was being hit with a chain by a little girl. He had tried all the things he was supposed to; assertively tell her to stop, walk away, seek adult help (I was not present at the moment. It was a party, and the aunt he chose to ask did not take him seriously.)

I walked up to her and told her to give me the chain. She wouldn't. She was going to keep it, and she was going to hit people with it as much as she pleased. RIGHT TO MY FACE. I told her she was, in fact, not. She was going to give it to me right now. She insisted it was hers and that she was going to get her mother. This kid beleived that her mother was going to support her right to beat people up with a chain! I took it from her and told her that she and her mother can see me if they have a problem.

I later told my son that if he is ever in that situation again, and all other recourse has been exhausted, he has the right to defend himself. If he does hit her or him HARD. Hit hard, knock her down. Finish it.
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Old 09-22-2011, 11:27 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Aconite View Post
I have difficulty with an oversimplified, black and white view of the world.
When my daughter was being bullied, there was no conflict. The bullies weren't angry or conflicted, they were enjoying themselves immensely. The bystanders weren't particularly upset, from the looks of things. My daughter wasn't conflicted so much as terrified and depressed. By strict definition, it wasn't even particularly violent most of the time-- texting of cell phone photographs, mocking, etc.
So yes, in fact, I do take "issue" with your assessment.
So do I. Which is why I have repeatedly used the word spectrum. It isn't a black or white issue.
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Old 09-22-2011, 12:28 PM
 
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Ok. For the record I DO discipline my child. And he's not a bad kid, he very rarely gets in trouble at school or home. If you knew me or my child you wouldn't think he was a "discipline" problem because he isn't. I'm simply pointing out that there are kids (of which mine is one) who are naturally inclined to boss other kids around...sorry you don't control your child's entire personality despite the "blame the parent" mentality. Yes, as a parent I am responsible for my child's behavior.

However, I think if you looked at children 50yrs ago, they were much more likely to solve their own disputes than to automatically involve the teacher and the parent. I think that social consequences in general help straighten out bullies. If no one played with my child when he started getting bossy, I imagine the behavior would change.

Now obviously my son is little (he's 4!) and we aren't going to allow him to escalate his behavior into something more serious but I also think that teaching your children to stand up for themselves is an important skill. After all, you aren't going to complain to your child's college professor are you? Or their boss?
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Old 09-22-2011, 12:29 PM
 
2,779 posts, read 5,489,182 times
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Originally Posted by somebodynew View Post
It is a sticky wicket because of the zero tolerance policy at schools. A kid can get in trouble for even defending themselves.

But your lesson is the right one, and I learned it the hard way. A few years ago, my son was being hit with a chain by a little girl. He had tried all the things he was supposed to; assertively tell her to stop, walk away, seek adult help (I was not present at the moment. It was a party, and the aunt he chose to ask did not take him seriously.)

I walked up to her and told her to give me the chain. She wouldn't. She was going to keep it, and she was going to hit people with it as much as she pleased. RIGHT TO MY FACE. I told her she was, in fact, not. She was going to give it to me right now. She insisted it was hers and that she was going to get her mother. This kid beleived that her mother was going to support her right to beat people up with a chain! I took it from her and told her that she and her mother can see me if they have a problem.

I later told my son that if he is ever in that situation again, and all other recourse has been exhausted, he has the right to defend himself. If he does hit her or him HARD. Hit hard, knock her down. Finish it.
I think you handled this beautifully.
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Old 09-22-2011, 12:38 PM
 
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Originally Posted by hml1976 View Post
Ok. For the record I DO discipline my child. And he's not a bad kid, he very rarely gets in trouble at school or home. If you knew me or my child you wouldn't think he was a "discipline" problem because he isn't. I'm simply pointing out that there are kids (of which mine is one) who are naturally inclined to boss other kids around...sorry you don't control your child's entire personality despite the "blame the parent" mentality. Yes, as a parent I am responsible for my child's behavior.

However, I think if you looked at children 50yrs ago, they were much more likely to solve their own disputes than to automatically involve the teacher and the parent. I think that social consequences in general help straighten out bullies. If no one played with my child when he started getting bossy, I imagine the behavior would change.
I don't think this is necessarily true. I can't speak to 50 years ago. But I can speak to 35 - 40. We solved our own disputes by doing what the boss said or getting beat up.

Quote:
Now obviously my son is little (he's 4!) and we aren't going to allow him to escalate his behavior into something more serious but I also think that teaching your children to stand up for themselves is an important skill. After all, you aren't going to complain to your child's college professor are you? Or their boss?
I would agree that teaching your child to stick up for themselves is an important skill. But it seems like an odd time to bring it up as important in a thread about handling bullies.
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Old 09-22-2011, 12:38 PM
 
Location: NE PA
7,931 posts, read 15,784,567 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hml1976 View Post
Now obviously my son is little (he's 4!) and we aren't going to allow him to escalate his behavior into something more serious but I also think that teaching your children to stand up for themselves is an important skill. After all, you aren't going to complain to your child's college professor are you? Or their boss?
Although, in a workplace, it is not acceptable for 2 coworkers with a disagreement to duke it out in the parking lot after work. They won't have a job for long. The professional way usually involves alerting one's superiors that there is a problem and working out an agreement. So why do we teach kids that fighting is a normal way to settle disputes?
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Old 09-22-2011, 12:57 PM
 
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BIG difference between being bossy (many smart children are, BTW) and being a bully.
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Old 09-22-2011, 01:02 PM
 
Location: NE PA
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Originally Posted by DewDropInn View Post
BIG difference between being bossy (many smart children are, BTW) and being a bully.
No, I'd say its more of a fine line than a big difference.
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Old 09-22-2011, 01:04 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Mr Yuk View Post
Although, in a workplace, it is not acceptable for 2 coworkers with a disagreement to duke it out in the parking lot after work. They won't have a job for long. The professional way usually involves alerting one's superiors that there is a problem and working out an agreement. So why do we teach kids that fighting is a normal way to settle disputes?
It's a little different for school children. If someone walks up to you at work and smacks the daylights out of you, that person would be fired on the spot. I don't know of a workplace that would "suspend" someone for physically assaulting someone. They would be gone, and on top of that they could be faced with criminal charges.

Whereas when you have a child being picked on, they may get suspended or reprimanded, but they will be back, and the bullying WILL continue. It may be even worse after the bully has been punished. You can't fire kids from school, and it's pretty rare that a school age bully would suffer any legal consequences.

I wouldn't teach my kid to fight first, or to hit someone just because she doesn't like what they said, or for name calling, but I do teach her that she has the right to defend herself when someone else puts their hands on her, and when all else fails to fight, and fight hard. Meaning send that child home choking on his own snot. Fight so that person will never bother her again. What else do you tell your kid, when they've told the teacher, told you, you've told the bully's parents, told the principal, told anyone else who will listen, and the abuse continues? I can only fight for her so much, she has to learn to do some fighting for herself, whether it's physical or verbal.
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