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No, I'm not the one ignoring what's around me. I'm the one seeing it. You can say that until you're blue in the fact but that won't make it true. But I'm not going down this path again.... I've said my piece and no one seems to be able to counter my actual argument.
Yes your actual argument has been countered. You have not addressed those posts.
Yes your actual argument has been countered. You have not addressed those posts.
I don't see where but, since that topic is closed, it doesn't matter. Back to the topic on hand. Does time matter? Which is really asking if SAHM's having more time than WM's matters. Research says our kids don't turn out differently based on maternal working status so the answer is no.
We all know, logically, that we need enough time and we all know, logically that we can have too much time. Apparently, the range where you have enough time is big enough to hold both the working moms and the stay at home moms. So, whether you work or not is just a personal preference looking at only time spent with kids.
Time studies are interesting. There really isn't a big difference in the time that SAHM's and WM's spend with their children. Not enough to matter anyway.
Stay at home vs. work is a separate argument. I'm sure most of us could point to a working mother who is very involved with her children and a stay-at-home mother who is not. People all fit into different buckets.
I am not denigrating anyone's choices. WHY is saying that WOH is just as good as SAH (ignoring finances) putting down SAHM's in the least. I'm saying that if you ignore the financial impact, SAH/WOH doesn't matter. I'm not saying SAH is less than WOH. I'm saying it's equivalent. Why would anyone take that as a put down?
And it's not your call when I stop or how I spend my spare time. I'm not going to stop because you don't like what I say. If you disagree, post your argument. I love how debates reduce to attack the poster when you can't actually argue against what they say. So now it's about how I spend my time....Sorry, that's my business not yours and it has NOTHING to do with the debate at hand.
Once more: it's not what you state. It's how you state it. And if you're really socially obtuse enough not to realize, after all this time, that you're phrasing things in an aggressively hostile manner, then heaven help those you deal with IRL. Personally, I figure you know exactly what you're doing, but if I call a tr*** a tr***, Julia will hand me my head.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler
I really don't get why people cling to the belief that SAH is somehow better when 40+ years of research says otherwise. Some people just refuse to see anything except what they want to see. Seriously, if SAH/WOH mattered, someone would have figured that out in 40+ years of research. It did not take 40 years to figure out that eating dinner as a family has a positive impact on kids. Why is it taking so long to show SAH is better??? Gee....I wonder... Um, MAYBE, it's not. Finances aside, SAH/WOH are equivalent choices. We both raise happy, well adjusted kids who do well. Why anyone would take offense to my saying that is beyond me.
You have posted no hard evidence to support your claim-- not scientific, certainly not personal/anecdotal. And while overall, in a global, societal sense I might be inclined to agree that both working and at home moms are perfectly capable of turning out well-adjusted, decent children, I also absolutely do not believe in "one size fits all". For individual children, and for individual families, it matters very much. And that, my dear Ivory, is where we are at an impasse: because you cannot or will not see anything but the statistical average, and individuals tend to be a mass of combinations and contradictions.
How do you think my time off differs from how you spend your time? I watch/play with/teach my kids, I clean my house, I run errands, I cook, I pay bills, I do projects, I do yard work.....
What do you do that I don't? You do more of what I do but you have 50 hours more per week to do it in. So the only difference is the amount of time we have to get things done.
May I ask-- if you're truly doing everything the SAHMs are doing, why? Wth is Mr. Ivory doing, and what are those teenaged children doing, while you're working your fingers to the bone doing household work/chores/what have you?
I'm not suggesting you're lying or exaggerating. But if you are not, I can think of three people who need a major Come-to-Jesus meeting ASAP.
UGH....When talking about how people spend their time, it's customary to talk about norms not individuals.
On what planet? And that was just rude, by the way. Even without the "ugh", you needn't talk down to jojo like she's a somewhat addle-pated refugee from Teen Mom.
As I said, housekeeping is a duty we have to take care of when home. It's not the only thing we do at home by far. There isn't enough of it to fill the time we're home. It's just one thing to check off and a common complaint amoung moms who try to do it with children under foot. Getting up two hours before they do works quite well then you have the rest of the day for whatever you want.
Some people find that sleep deprivation is antithetical to being an empathetic, pleasant-to-be-around human being. And martyrdom is not a particularly attractive look on anyone.
I don't see where but, since that topic is closed, it doesn't matter. Back to the topic on hand. Does time matter? Which is really asking if SAHM's having more time than WM's matters. Research says our kids don't turn out differently based on maternal working status so the answer is no.
Here is where you refuse to deal with people who refute your statements. You say that you are a numbers person. I am also a numbers person. I understand the need to quantify things. However, your analysis of the quantitative data is very flawed. You have not dealt with the statement that 23 minutes a day of additional time is a lot of additional time.
You presented data that stated that SAHMs spend 23 additional minutes per day with their kids than WOHMs. 23 minutes per day, 7 days a week, for 52 weeks equals roughly 140 hours additional time spent with kids per year. That is a lot of time. It is not insignificant. You need to acknowledge that. You brush it off as if it is an insignificant amount of time and it can just be dismissed as unimportant. But that is a huge amount of time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler
Time studies are interesting. There really isn't a big difference in the time that SAHM's and WM's spend with their children. Not enough to matter anyway.
I have to disagree. 23 minutes a day is a huge difference. Over 18 years of a child's life (that's what your study measured) that equals 2512 hours, which is over 100 DAYS. Not an insignificant amount of time.
You also state that women spend more time on child care than they did in the 1920s. If you read your own research you will see that is not true. Women in 1997 spent about the SAME amount of time on child care as they did in the 1920s, although time per child has increased (due to women having less children now).
You have not really dealt with these issues other than to say that the numbers are insignificant and don't matter. I have to call you out on that.
100 FULL DAYS do matter. In reality, parents do not spend 24 hours a day awake. 100 FULL DAYS really equates with about 150 days assuming we sleep 1/3 of the day. That's about 40% of a year. I cannot see how you can just brush that off as insignificant.
This article, study or whatever you posted seems to be comparing the amount of time WMs spend with their children over the course of 18 years to moms who SAH during the early years (0-5) + the next 13 years. It does not specify whether the moms go back to work or not when their children enter school, but that probably doesn't matter.
So yes, over the course of 18 years, the AVERAGE time a SAHM spends may only be 23 minutes a day more than the WM, but I find this little tidbit makes the article misleading.
I think if you compared the time a SAHM mom spends with their children during the early years (say 0-5) to the time a WM spends with their children during the early years (0-5), the difference would be huge.
As for housework, when my kids were very young (0-5), I spent much less time doing housework (other than picking up after them) than I do now. Most of my day was spent changing diapers, bathing, feeding, playing, taking kids on outings, playdates, teaching, etc.
Housework was done when the kids were NAPPING. No naps during the day here! Housework was also done on the weekend when hubby was home to keep an eye on the kids while I cleaned. Laundry was usually done after the kids were in bed. This was the case for the moms I knew who also stayed home when their kids were very little.
Therefore, it would be IMPOSSIBLE for a WM to spend anywhere near the amount of time a SAHM spends with their children during the early years.
Yes, after 18 years it may average out to only 23 minute more a day, but many moms who decide to stay home usually do so when their children are very young. Once their kids enter school, many moms who previously stayed home go back to work either part-time or full-time. Not all, mind you, because some come to the conclusion that staying at home is still beneficial for THEIR family and it is what works best for THEIR family.
Edited to add: And, as Momma_bear has pointed out, that average 23 minutes more a day is NOT that insignificant.
Does time matter? Which is really asking if SAHM's having more time than WM's matters.
That is the core of the whole block you have in front of you. You are assuming when you say "Which is really asking...". So you are now a mind reader?
I am not so I am sticking about time correlation whereas you are very stuck in the MV vs SAHM issue. Your agenda is so clear that regardless of what anybody say you are like the automaton just walking straight looking into space and only see and repeat "WM vs SAHM...WM vs SAHM...Wm vs SAHM" and on and on. Take care.
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But I'm not going down this path again.... I've said my piece and no one seems to be able to counter my actual argument.
I watch/play with/teach my kids, I clean my house, I run errands, I cook, I pay bills, I do projects, I do yard work.....