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Being a good parent, and being married are not mutually exclusive. A person can be single and a good parent. And a person can be married, in a high SES, with a college education and be a bad parent.
And just because you are a good parent, does not mean your child is or is not sexually active. Many studies regarding promiscuity and teen girls were already skewed, based on the populations studied, and the flaws in the hypothesis. Studies can be manipulated based on politics and even the statistical measurement used. I did a study recently with a doctor, and we applied a Spearman to the numbers, it made the "numbers" look statistically significant for coorelation, when in fact, there is no real statistical significance or coorelation. We could manipulate the findings anyway we want. So, please, don't cite "research" to me.
Sex-- even when teens do it-- doesn't always have a Deep Psychological Meaning. Sometimes, the only meaning it has is "seemed like a good idea at the time".
In fact, I suspect, though I have no Great And Powerful Demographic Studies Performed By a Think Tank of Uncertain Provenance to refer to, quite a lot of human life in general is governed by the "I couldn't think of a compelling reason not to" philosophy of action. Most people just aren't that deep.
Actually, demographics, all by itself, does make a difference. That's why research corrects for demographics. If it were other things that tracked with demographics, they'd correct for those. Like it or not, success breeds success.
Assuming for the sake of argument that has more value than as a cheap tea towel aphorism, would "good parenting" suggest that the only way to define success is by whipping out one's checkbook and measuring? That seems rather cheap and vulgar, and I'm not convinced modeling that is compatible with "good parenting".
You do realize that most lottery winners really screw up their lives, right? There's a difference between working your way into the middle class and buying a winning lotto ticket. SES is about more than money. It's about the things that made you successful in the first place.
How do you define a "successful child in order to determine how well you did as a parent? Lots of really bright kids go off to top colleges get high paying intense jobs and spend their lives in therapy and cannot figure out how to be happy. Successful?
On the other hand I am starting to believe that all adults could probably benefit from good therapy they just either cannot afford it, do not have the time, or do not want to admit that they need it. I am not sure going to a therapist indicates a lack of success.
What about a kid who is happy, confident, well adjusted and financially successful but then something goes wrong, they cannot handle it and commit suicide. Successful kid? Good parenting? Faulty parenting? Defective kid that could not have been raised better? Just human frailty? Hard to tell.
Most people say "successful" is happy, self-confident, well adjusted, satisfied and faithful. But how do you know if a kid is really all of these things or just good at maintaining that appearance while inside they are seething with self loathing, despair, loneliness, or a feeling of emptiness and incompleteness? At what stage in their life to you take such a measurement? Measure at the end? So far, I have been many of these positive and negative things at different points in my life. At some times people would look at me and say my parents should have been giving other parents advice at other times people would look at me and hold my parents up as the exaple of what not to do. I think that is true of many of the people who come here and post advice. Some ideas make a lot of sense but have unexpected consequences.
Perhaps the only way you will get the answer to this question is to outlive your kids (something I would dread more than anything that I can think of). Even then, you will not know what is really going on inside them. You will not know everything they have done.
The more I think about my original question, the more I think that pretty much everyone's answer has to be "I do not know and I hope I never know."
How do you define a "successful child in order to determine how well you did as a parent? Lots of really bright kids go off to top colleges get high paying intense jobs and spend their lives in therapy and cannot figure out how to be happy. Successful?
On the other hand I am starting to believe that all adults could probably benefit from good therapy they just either cannot afford it, do not have the time, or do not want to admit that they need it. I am not sure going to a therapist indicates a lack of success.
What about a kid who is happy, confident, well adjusted and financially successful but then something goes wrong, they cannot handle it and commit suicide. Successful kid? Good parenting? Faulty parenting? Defective kid that could not have been raised better? Just human frailty? Hard to tell.
Most people say "successful" is happy, self-confident, well adjusted, satisfied and faithful. But how do you know if a kid is really all of these things or just good at maintaining that appearance while inside they are seething with self loathing, despair, loneliness, or a feeling of emptiness and incompleteness? At what stage in their life to you take such a measurement? Measure at the end? So far, I have been many of these positive and negative things at different points in my life. At some times people would look at me and say my parents should have been giving other parents advice at other times people would look at me and hold my parents up as the exaple of what not to do. I think that is true of many of the people who come here and post advice. Some ideas make a lot of sense but have unexpected consequences.
Perhaps the only way you will get the answer to this question is to outlive your kids (something I would dread more than anything that I can think of). Even then, you will not know what is really going on inside them. You will not know everything they have done.
The more I think about my original question, the more I think that pretty much everyone's answer has to be "I do not know and I hope I never know."
I think if I had to go for a sound byte answer it would be "I did the best I knew how, and when I knew better, I did better." But if we're judging solely on results, I also figure that if I don't know my kids by the age they are now (well into settled adulthood) then I likely never will.
Assuming for the sake of argument that has more value than as a cheap tea towel aphorism, would "good parenting" suggest that the only way to define success is by whipping out one's checkbook and measuring? That seems rather cheap and vulgar, and I'm not convinced modeling that is compatible with "good parenting".
I know a lot of rich people who are truly horrid people, and lots more who are just moderately unpleasant (often rude and self-absorbed). I certainly do not measure success by acquired wealth or income. Some of the best people I know are low income earners. (Some of the worst are as well).
The same is true of my perception of parenting. Some of the worst parents I know are wealthy. However so are some of the best. Likewise with non-wealthy families. It does seem to me that blue collar or no income families are more likely to engage in physical abuse, but even that is not across the board and it may seem that way because of my limited experiences are slanted on one direction or other just by chance.
Another thing that is interesting is that four kids with the same parents will often have wildly different levels of "success." So if one child succeeds in most ways while three others fail, or if three kids are wildly successful and become pillars of the community while two others become suicidal bigoted axe murderers. Its it good parenting for one child while the same parenting was "bad parenting" for the other three? Is it the inherent nature of the child? Is it just chance?
Statistics -
Personally I think that our society places too much reliance on purported statistics. As noted they can easily be skewed. Often they are unintentionally skewed and even skewed without the people gathering the information even realizing that they are skewing it. Further a lot of is is just wrong. The CDC for example is notorious for reporting inaccurate statistics. Not only skewed, but just plain wrong. We also place way too much reliance and credibility on media and internet statements. I have been involved in four events that were deemed newsworthy where I was an insider and aware of the actual facts. In each instance I was amazed at how completely wrong the media is when presenting their information. When they interview you, you come with pre-concieved notions about you, and no matter what you say, what they hear and what they print or broadcast will conform to those pre-concieved notions, even if you did nto say anything of the sort. It appears that they just make things up and claim that it is a quote, but I think in reality, they simply hear and write down what they expect to hear from you, regardless of what you actually say. Yet, I still see something on a newscast and tend to take it for accurate until something indicates otherwise.
I think if I had to go for a sound byte answer it would be "I did the best I knew how, and when I knew better, I did better." But if we're judging solely on results, I also figure that if I don't know my kids by the age they are now (well into settled adulthood) then I likely never will.
My parents do not know the best things nor the worst things that I have ever done, let alone my internal thoughts. When I had really bad emotional times I maintained the appearance that everything was hunky dory.
Aconite: I think if I had to go for a sound byte answer it would be "I did the best I knew how, and when I knew better, I did better." But if we're judging solely on results, I also figure that if I don't know my kids by the age they are now (well into settled adulthood) then I likely never will.
My parents do not know the best things nor the worst things that I have ever done, let alone my internal thoughts. When I had really bad emotional times I maintained the appearance that everything was hunky dory.
I don't know every detail of my children's lives. Shoot, I don't want to know every detail of my children's lives. When all is said and done, some things are none of my business (and mothers of wee ones, bear in mind I'm talking specifically about my adult kids when I say that, so calm down). OTOH, I do know enough about their lives over a period of many years that I know who they are (and vice versa). Same thing with Granny Aconite, Mummy, and the rest of the older generations. Maybe it's because we Aconites are clannish folk. Maybe it's that I rocked it out as a parent. Probably more the former than the latter, but who knows?
Last edited by Aconite; 11-07-2011 at 08:14 AM..
Reason: eta: IME, when my kids thought they were putting on a good show, it was equally likely I had chosen not to notice.
I absolutely hate that my parents (my mother specifically) claim to have been good parents, therefore I will not claim to be a good parent in the sense that I have the most influence on how happy or successful my kids turn out. I think I turned well in spite of my parents not because of them.
I try to do the best I can and have their best interests at heart but who knows? So ask my kids at some point in their adult lives whether I have been a good parent or better yet, ask their spouse.
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