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But.....this is what we do with our children, and most people I know do this with their children, and they are not unschooling or homeschooling, just parenting. This is just creating an interesting environment for children (and the parents). I still don't understand what this has to do with homeschooling.
I too want to see the long-term results of unschooling. Discussing the happiness of a 5 year-old in an unschooling environment is well and good, but I want to know what the 25 year-olds are doing.
Yes, taking our kids to museums and such places and providing a colorful envionment is what most of us think of as a thing called parenting... and I have a hard time thinking of that as a kid's sole form of education.
While I do not doubt your commitment to your child and her education I do know first hand that many parents do not have that level of commitment or even resources necessary to deal with those things.
Additionally, saying that people who do not do what you do as an unschooler are not actually unscshoolers, is the definition of the "no true scotsman" fallacy. Besides if the point is to escape rules, labels and definitions than narrowly defining unschooling is sort of hypocritical in and of itself.
Anyway, until an actual study on the longitudinal success of unschooling comes in I am still going to think it is potential dangerous and inherently limited in depth. I know for a fact that it is not possible for an unschooler or even a home schooler to replicate our program at home, and for kids whose passion is science that is sad indeed.
You are really taking things out of context. Someone described what they were doing and said that they thought they might be a radical unschooler. Since this is a discussion about what radical unschooling and unschooling are I felt it was necessary to clarify because that's just not what radical unschooling is all about. That poster could easily be considered an unschooler from what she posted but radical unschooling is different. What if we were having a discussion about what homeschooling is and I told you that I'm a homeschooler but I send my kids to a nice public school 5 days a week, 6 hours a day, year round; would you just agree with me that I'm a homeschooler or would you point out that that's not really homeschooling?
Labels convey information and meaning succinctly. They are useful. If people just want to make up their own versions of what radical unschooling is, that's fine but if we're actually trying to understand what that label means then I think it's important to be clear about what something is and is not.
Unschooling is something that is difficult for many people to fully understand because it's so far from what most of us grew up with and what we considered education to look like. It took me years to really wrap my mind around it and truly get it. It was only after reading a number of books by a few different authors and discussing it with others for me to really get it. I still don't fully understand all that goes with radical unschooling but I respect those who have made the choice to commit to it and since it's something that I find interesting, I'll continue to read about it, talk about it and try to fully understand. However, I do know enough to know that the example presented did not fit in with what radical unschooling is. If people find that offensive then I just don't know what to tell them.
Unschoolers and many homeschoolers are not interested in replicating your porgram at home. I'm sorry that you are unable to see the value in anything without having scientific proof.
But.....this is what we do with our children, and most people I know do this with their children, and they are not unschooling or homeschooling, just parenting. This is just creating an interesting environment for children (and the parents). I still don't understand what this has to do with unschooling.
If you did all of these things and took your child out of school that is pretty much what unschooling would look like. There's a little more to radical unschooling and since CharlotteGal has experience with that (and just more experience and knowledge about unschooling in general) maybe she can expand.
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I too want to see the long-term results of unschooling. Discussing the happiness of a 5 year-old in an unschooling environment is well and good, but I want to know what the 25 year-olds are doing.
Unfortunately, studies have not been done but there are some adult unschoolers out there sharing what they are doing and there are many success stories. Those stories would be anecdotal though so I'm not sure it's worth my time to find any and post them here.
If you did all of these things and took your child out of school that is pretty much what unschooling would look like. There's a little more to radical unschooling and since CharlotteGal has experience with that (and just more experience and knowledge about unschooling in general) maybe she can expand.
Unfortunately, studies have not been done but there are some adult unschoolers out there sharing what they are doing and there are many success stories. Those stories would be anecdotal though so I'm not sure it's worth my time to find any and post them here.
The thing is, a great number of parents do all of the things an unschooler does, in addition to sending their kids to a 'regular' school or in addition to a more structured approach to homeschooling. We simply call it parenting. To me, it's somewhat inconceivable that going places and having many resources available is a kid's only form of schooling.
The thing is, a great number of parents do all of the things an unschooler does, in addition to sending their kids to a 'regular' school or in addition to a more structured approach to homeschooling. We simply call it parenting. To me, it's somewhat inconceivable that going places and having many resources available is a kid's only form of schooling.
Unschoolers don't believe that school or structured curriculum would be in their child's best interest. Many believe that those things would actually hinder learning, rather then support it.
Unschoolers don't believe that school or structured curriculum would be in their child's best interest. Many believe that those things would actually hinder learning, rather then support it.
I suspect the problem I am having with the concept is my lack of understanding of the ultimate goals. I'm not sure what "their child's best interest" means. I would love not to discipline my children, it hurts their feelings, it is difficult for me, but ultimately I understand why it's important, and self-discipline being one very important goal.
"Learning" is another term I suspect is being used to represent different things. There is learning gained by self-discovery, and I think every child inherently does that, and then there is guided learning. No one (except for a very, very few) is capable of understanding complicated concepts unless they are taught. Think of advanced math, physics, languages, etc.
What goals do parents have for their unschooled children, both short and long-term?
It's all very interesting to me. One question I hope you can answer without going into specifics. I'm not trying to invade your privacy:
What is your background? A lot of what you are talking about (encouraging a child to have inner-peace and a few other things you've mentioned) is very 60's hippie-ish. And I'm not saying that as a put down. While I wasn't a hippie I certainly hung out with more than a few. Enough to have some very definite hippie leanings. I can totally understand the thought process behind what you are doing. (And some of what you've talked about I've done myself.)
So can you tell us a little about how you came to accept these ideas? Were you brought up with them?
I've been thinking about your question! Life goes on, and you make a series of choices - it's interesting to go back and look at "why".
A note after writing this: I wrote a book! Sorry.
I was certainly not raised with these ideas - mine was a typical, for the time, parents are in charge, kids should do as they're told without question, childhood. Perhaps not so typically (or maybe very typically?), there was a lot of dysfunction and distance in our family.
Before I had kids, I began a meditation practice, looking within, becoming in touch with my "core self". I had hit a point of very deep depression, and this practice was one of things that helped me overcome that. I know that has certainly played a part in my parenting and unschooling.
I practiced attachment parenting with my youngest, at first, without knowing that was an actual practice, with a name for it. I held him when he let me know he wanted to be held (a lot!), I coslept because he slept SO much better when he was cuddled next to me, I nursed on demand. Those choices were about raising a child who would know I was there for him, who would know he was not alone in the world.
I intuitively knew that when he 'misbehaved', that he was actually doing the best he could with the knowledge he had. I did not want to punish him. Slapping his hand might keep him from touching the light socket, but I felt if he was reaching for the light socket, it was because he had an innate curiosity about the world, and slapping him would cause that curiosity to dampen. This came from me, I didn't read that in a book; I felt it in my gut, and I had learned to trust my gut.
That was relatively easy until he became 3 - 4 years old. All of my friends who were attachment parents put their kids in half-day preschool "for a break", they began parenting more traditionally. I didn't know about radical unschooling then. I began to not trust my gut as much, I bought the idea that you have to TEACH your kids "how the world works". It felt horrible! But I didn't know there was another way. I found out about 'Positive Discipline' and jibed with some of the ideas there: Kids don't have to feel bad to learn. Focus on the positive. We had family meetings as advocated in the book, which I see now, were just a way for me to manipulate and get my way in a nice way.
When he was old enough to start school, it felt so wrong for him to go! I mean - here was the whole wide world, and then, there was this building that he would be stuck in for 6 hours a day. I really enjoyed being with him, but I thought that if we homeschooled, we would ruin our relationship. I didn't want contention between us, and from what I knew about homeschooling, I'd create that by doing lessons, "making" him learn.
I helped start a charter school here, with a few other parents. We wanted it to be a place where kids could flourish, where positive discipline was used in the classroom, where the kids would have a garden and lots of outside time. I had done some research on Waldorf Schools - I thought that kind of school would be a perfect fit for my sweet, sensitive son. It couldn't be a Waldorf school for reasons I can't remember now, but we wanted some of those same principles to be in effect there. Educate the child, heart, hands, and mind. Don't push reading. Unfortunately, those ideas were not written into the charter. We got a TON of high-needs kids at the charter school, which I've since found happens. We had parents who didn't want positive discipline used - and they voted that out. The school, while it had its good points, was not what I wanted at all by the time he was of an age to go. It was still, I thought, the best we could do, so he went there for first and second grades. There were good things about it - a very low student/teacher ratio, community involvement.
In those years, I saw his enthusiasm for learning wane. I saw him start to lose his spark. I spoke with a homeschooling friend, and she said, "There are many different ways to homeschool." There are?! "Different ways to homeschool" was one of the very first things I ever put into a search engine (way back before google), and unschooling was one of the first things that came up. The more I read, the more I loved it, and thought it fit how I *really* wanted to live, not how I thought "society" was saying we should live.
I also found out about Sudbury Valley School around that same time. I ordered many of their books, and was in tears the first time I saw their video (on that same webpage linked above). THIS is what learning should be! I was going to start a Sudbury Valley School, and I figured until it opened, we would unschool. I immersed myself in Sudbury, and really gained an understanding of how it worked, and through doing that, came to trust unschooling more. During the time I was finding like-minded parents, and getting a start-up group going, I realized I really, really enjoyed being with the boys, and they were absolutely thriving, so I dropped the idea of starting a school and made a full-on commitment to radical unschooling.
It has taken years for me to gain a real grasp of radical unschooling, years for me to drop ideas I had about how kids learn, about how families should function. My mindfulness practice plays in HUGELY here. Mindful choices, that's what it's about.
I *so* wish I had found unschooling earlier! It would have saved us all that time of unnecessary disconnection. Sandra Dodd has a collection of thoughts about that - If Only I'd Started Sooner My oldest son and I are still healing from some of that! Things come up when you least expect. We come across a stuck place, and realize, "Oh, this is from when I made you eat that dinner you didn't like" or something like that. Not that we're the walking wounded - we're both happy and stable, and my youngest is one of the happiest kids I know - but, like I said, things come up.
I certainly had my hippie-ish time: I followed the Grateful Dead, believed love is all you need (still believe that, just in a different way!), believe in freedom, justice, harmony, and peace. And that time must play a part in who I am now, though it's in a less conscious way than do attachment parenting and mindfulness.
Last edited by CharlotteGal; 11-27-2011 at 12:16 PM..
I suspect the problem I am having with the concept is my lack of understanding of the ultimate goals. I'm not sure what "their child's best interest" means. I would love not to discipline my children, it hurts their feelings, it is difficult for me, but ultimately I understand why it's important, and self-discipline being one very important goal.
If self-discipline is the goal, then how will discipline that comes from outside help achieve that? You can't GIVE someone discipline, it comes from within. You can make them compliant (or appear compliant) - but that's not self-discipline, it's obedience.
Zimbo, I think you might really vibe with the writing of Joyce Fetteroll (just a feeling I have). Her site quotes others, but there's also lots of her own writing on there. Here's her short page about self-discipline - Rejoycing - Self-discipline You can follow other links to more writing - I think you'll like her style.
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Originally Posted by Zimbochick
"Learning" is another term I suspect is being used to represent different things. There is learning gained by self-discovery, and I think every child inherently does that, and then there is guided learning. No one (except for a very, very few) is capable of understanding complicated concepts unless they are taught. Think of advanced math, physics, languages, etc.
It's a misconception that only a very, very few can understand those concepts without being taught. A person who, from the very beginning, trusts their own learning, and knows the world to be a place they're free to explore, has a VERY different relationship with learning than someone who's been "taught" most of their lives. It may take guidance - and an unschooler will seek out that guidance. It may not; it depends on the unschooler. There's not one right way to get information, or come to an understanding.
When it comes time for more guided learning - becoming a doctor, or engineer come to mind - unschoolers will seek that out, and will go to college if needed to meet their goals.
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Originally Posted by Zimbochick
What goals do parents have for their unschooled children, both short and long-term?
I can speak only for me; I imagine if you asked a hundred unschoolers, you'd get a hundred different answers! My goals: That my kids are happy, they have their own goals for their lives and trust they can attain them. That they are capable, and have self-knowledge to trust their capabilities. Secondarily, I hope they are caring, compassionate people, but I know I can't control that. I hope they remain curious and interested their whole lives.
I can influence those things, but one can't really have goals for another person! Well - you can, but you might either be disappointed, or cause them to lose sight of their goals for themselves, if they want to please you.
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