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I've been thinking about your question! Life goes on, and you make a series of choices - it's interesting to go back and look at "why".
A note after writing this: I wrote a book! Sorry.
Thank you for sharing your journey with us, CharlotteGal.
I can understand the concern of other posters in which the process of school prepares a child for the "real world." But that is assuming the child does not live in the real world right now.
From what I can tell, rules are seen as negative from both sides. One side sees it as unnecessary. The other side sees it as necessary.
My approach on rules is positive. I see them as the means to participate in different social circles. Not only should they be followed, but that very same person should have an opportunity to create them.
That starts with yourself within the security of your family.
the human brain does not have the development required, by age 13, to be capable of preparing themselves for their own future by virtue of their own personal interests and/or desires.
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Originally Posted by AnonChick
She is not preparing her child for any of these things. She's letting her child decide what her child will do with her life -at an age when she doesn't possess the mental faculties yet to make such decisions.
A person becomes better able to make decisions by making real decisions, that have true impact. The more freedom a child has to make decisions - getting lots of input, looking within to choose, making a decision, then seeing that decision play out - the better decisions she'll make as an adult.
It's not deciding what she'll do with her life. It's deciding what she'll do NOW, in this moment, and getting support for that. "What to do with her life" can come at any time - some kids know when they're quite young, and some kids know when they're older.
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Originally Posted by AnonChick
She feels her role as a parent is to make sure her kids are happy. That isn't true. Her role as a parent is to prepare her child for adulthood. PREpare..adulthood involves ritual, detail, discipline, timelines, deadlines, following rules, civil disobedience and understanding the difference between violating a law "just cause I feel like it" and violating a law "to intentionally draw attention to an injustice."
She must have missed this: "My goals: That my kids are happy, they have their own goals for their lives and trust they can attain them. That they are capable, and have self-knowledge to trust their capabilities."
She must not understand that those goals are achievable when ritual, discipline, details, timelines, deadlines and following rules are CHOSEN, not IMPOSED. She doesn't know that kids, given freedom, will choose what works for them to meet their goals - and that frequently includes ritual, detail, discipline, timelines, deadlines, following rules and, occasionally, civil disobedience.
When kids have freedom of choice, they rarely choose to break laws, or ignore rules "just 'cause I feel like it". Doing that is usually a result of having been forced to follow rules - it's an acting out against that coercion. Being given the ability to make decisions also confers responsibility for those decisions - on the child, along with their supportive adult if they're younger. The unschoolers I know are incredibly responsible and thoughtful.
I also hope she sees how speaking about someone in a forum discussion, rather than to them, can be very off-putting.
Last edited by CharlotteGal; 11-28-2011 at 07:55 AM..
My son loves to build and create things with Legos, and he's very inventive. My dad and grandfather are engineers, and my son enjoys math, so I wouldn't be surprised if he wanted to be an engineer also. My father dropped out of college, and my grandfather never went, but today's world is so competitive that I wouldn't want to try to be an engineer without one. In any case, the work my father does requires a very high level of understanding of physics and math theory; he's extraordinarily talented in that area and always has been. Most of the rest of us are not so lucky that we can teach ourselves those concepts from a book--even my dad went to school and took college-level math and physics in junior high and high school.
Everybody needs teachers and mentors in order to attain his or her best. These mentors can be parents and other adults outside of a school setting, but many parents are not capable of helping their kids with college-level (or even high-school level) subjects. How does a kid learn to spell when his parents are not good spellers? By reading, perhaps, but many children do not enjoy reading. How does a kid learn algebra when her parents don't understand it either? If she seeks out another mentor, perhaps a tutor, and learns in a more organized way, with some practice ... isn't that school?
The special last night was very interesting. I was eager to see something that was working, a child engrossed in chemistry experiments or researching an ancient civilization or something else that intrested them..... instead the mother was *making* the boy chop up cucumbers and cut them in half (not exactly self directed, the boy showed no interest in helping with dinner). Again, not the very best example to put forth in representing the unschooling movement. The parents seemed uneducated and unmotivated.... and with a military background?? yet against rules or structure?? They obviously comformed to pay the bills.... yet are teaching their kids the opposite. None of the kids seemed motivated or inspired to learn. The one that enjoyed art was coloring or something........ not exactly diving into art. The others were doing..... orogami?? God knows left to his own devices, my son would sit and do orogami all day. This CAN'T be what this is about.... I'm still holding out judgement till I see how its supposed to work and a good result.
A while back there was the story of the 7 year old boy that was allowed to walk home from camp in NYC because "he wanted to", and as such, the parents allowed him to take the lead on what he was ready to do. He was kidnapped and chopped up in pieces, after God knows what torture. Unschoolers embraced this story and defended the decision of kids deciding for themselves. That was the first I had really heard of "unschooling". Of course I know that there are always segments of the population that misrepresent the group, so I am always intrested to hear of how its SUPPOSED to work..... but this story, as well as the stories on the aforementioned site are actually what is being put out there as representitive of unschooling. Either unschoolers are ok with raising unproductive, self centered individuals left to their own devices(which I doubt)..... or they need a PR person.
This is the worst set of experiences to support the unschooling movement. I am not a supporter of unschooling, but I had certainly thought that there were some stories of real success out there. The only story that even suggested a path of some life success was the one of the 17 year old that would like to be a doctor...... BUT hasn't been accepted into a college yet because of her unconventional schooling. I did only read the first set of stories on their site, and not the links to other sites.
Now I understand that people's level of success are very different, and I do admit I put way too much weight on numbers.... GPAs, test scores, low admittance percentages, salary potential, etc. But being a nanny, working at a bookstore, having to take an adult high school class, living in a van, having a blog, being a "writer" with books that don't sell, going from job to job only when something interests you or when you need cash to facilitate an immediate need...... and these are the stories that are validating this movement? The thing that they all do seem to have in common is the rejection of conventional society.... and doing things for their own enjoyment (which I guess was the point.... so, good job.... I guess) and self gratification, at the expense of a stable life and financial security.
But that is only my reaction to the list of stories listed. I do agree that conventional schooling has many negatives, but I can certainly come up with much better success stories.
The first example is a 17 year old girl who wants to be an MD and who has applied to UT Austin for her undergrad and is awaiting reply. She works as a nanny and a home health aide.
The second example is a 29 year old grad student who is studying library science and was just promoted from PT library assistant to FT library assistant at the Massachusetts Historical society. She's still in grad school.
The third example is of a 17 year old girl who left school at the age of 13 without her parents support and unschooled herself. She has had jobs and an internship with several non-profits.
The fourth example is of a 28 year old woman who has written three published novels.
The fifth example is a 25 year old stay at home mom who is unschooling her own child.
The sixth example is a 31 year old who had a mix of homeschooling, unschooling and public school for an education. She has a college degree, was accepted into grad school but chose not to go and who is currently a stay at home mom.
The last example (from the first section) went to public school up until high school and then left to unschool. She is a freelance writer and blogger, photographer, unschooling coach, massage therapist, and she unschools her own children.
None of these examples seem unusual considering the ages of the respondents.
If she seeks out another mentor, perhaps a tutor, and learns in a more organized way, with some practice ... isn't that school?
Yes, it is school. Unschoolers are not against taking classes that interest them or classes that they may need in order to lead them toward their goals.
The special last night was very interesting. I was eager to see something that was working, a child engrossed in chemistry experiments or researching an ancient civilization or something else that intrested them..... instead the mother was *making* the boy chop up cucumbers and cut them in half (not exactly self directed, the boy showed no interest in helping with dinner). Again, not the very best example to put forth in representing the unschooling movement. The parents seemed uneducated and unmotivated.... and with a military background?? yet against rules or structure?? They obviously comformed to pay the bills.... yet are teaching their kids the opposite. None of the kids seemed motivated or inspired to learn. The one that enjoyed art was coloring or something........ not exactly diving into art. The others were doing..... orogami?? God knows left to his own devices, my son would sit and do orogami all day. This CAN'T be what this is about.... I'm still holding out judgement till I see how its supposed to work and a good result.
I didn't watch the show. I'm not at all surprised that segment on unschooling on a show with "Extreme Parenting" in the title was portrayed in a negative manner.
For those who are truly interested in learning more about unschooling I'd suggest the following books: Anything by John Holt or John Taylor Gatto. The Teenage Liberation Handbook by Grace Llewellyn and the Unschooling Unmanual.
Quote:
A while back there was the story of the 7 year old boy that was allowed to walk home from camp in NYC because "he wanted to", and as such, the parents allowed him to take the lead on what he was ready to do. He was kidnapped and chopped up in pieces, after God knows what torture. Unschoolers embraced this story and defended the decision of kids deciding for themselves. That was the first I had really heard of "unschooling". Of course I know that there are always segments of the population that misrepresent the group, so I am always intrested to hear of how its SUPPOSED to work..... but this story, as well as the stories on the aforementioned site are actually what is being put out there as representitive of unschooling. Either unschoolers are ok with raising unproductive, self centered individuals left to their own devices(which I doubt)..... or they need a PR person.
Are you talking about the 8 year old boy (not an unschooler) who was walking home from day camp in one of NYC's safest neighborhoods who was the victim of a completely random crime? What does this have to do with unschooling?
CharlotteGal: Thank you SO much for taking the time to post your story. Fascinating. And I totally understand why you went the route you did. I admire people who have it in them to take a different route through life. It's not easy to buck the trend and tell society you have a different way.
Again, thanks. (I always want to know the WHY of things.)
When kids have freedom of choice, they rarely choose to break laws, or ignore rules "just 'cause I feel like it". Doing that is usually a result of having been forced to follow rules - it's an acting out against that coercion. Being given the ability to make decisions also confers responsibility for those decisions - on the child, along with their supportive adult if they're younger.
This is absolutely untrue. I worked at an agency that helped troubled youth, and the fact is neglected youth are 11 times more likely to commit juvenile crime than other children. While I know you would be upset with me using the word "neglect" in connection with the concept of unschooling, neglected children do make their own decisions. There are some who get themselves up for school and out the door because no one else will. They take care of younger siblings, cook food etc. They have complete responsibility, and it is quite difficult for them.
In turn, there are reports that show children in structured homes with proper parent supervision are far less likely to commit crimes. In fact parent supervision, in terms of knowing where your kids are and what they are doing, is quite key in this factor. You could perhaps argue that an unschooling home has proper parent supervision, and this would be the real factor in crime prevention--not the fact that the kids are making their own decisions. Regardless, the parenting aspect is quite key here.
None of these examples seem unusual considering the ages of the respondents.
sorry, none of these examples impressed me much. I don't envision my children living in vans or going from job to job as they meet an immediate gratification need. The only one that seemed to suceed to her standards was the part time librarian.... but I think that had a lot to do with the fact that her father was a professor at the college she attended, which had to provide some model of formalized education. She even took courses at the college before enrolling in college, which I define as formal education.
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Originally Posted by Dorthy
I didn't watch the show. I'm not at all surprised that segment on unschooling on a show with "Extreme Parenting" in the title was portrayed in a negative manner.
For those who are truly interested in learning more about unschooling I'd suggest the following books: Anything by John Holt or John Taylor Gatto. The Teenage Liberation Handbook by Grace Llewellyn and the Unschooling Unmanual.
Are you talking about the 8 year old boy (not an unschooler) who was walking home from day camp in one of NYC's safest neighborhoods who was the victim of a completely random crime? What does this have to do with unschooling?
Yes, no doubt it was a negative portrayal, I get that. I don't assume every household has a six year old standing on top of the kitchen table. That is my point, all representations seem to be negative. I'm curious to hear about the positive ones. From CharlotteGal's portrayal, I can see and FEEL that she does it for the best intrest of her children, and believes it with every fiber of her being. When your child's best intrest are in mind and it comes from a good place, that is more than half the battle.... isn't it? In reading other's portrayals, however, I have gotten the vibe of convenience, laziness, disregard to education (not... he'll learn chemistry through household experiments, but.... what will he need chemistry for....he just want to read science fiction, that will lead him somewhere.....)
yes, I'm talking about that story. And what that has to do with unschooling is that the author of "free range kids", which is a big proponent of unschooling, used this crime to promote the whole unschooling movement and extensively went on media outlets to tie her name and brand with this crime. She believes in sending 8 year olds into the city alone...... but advices against giving them a cell phone.... as they might loose it .
I relate more to the "tiger parents", although I would distance myself FAR from that label, as I would never push my kids like that. But I can relate to wanting to give them the best opportunities and teach them the values of working hard. Again, I would never "label" myself like that because it includes things that do not represent me. That is my curiousity, why someone would want to "label" themselves an unschooler, when I've never seen a really great representation.
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The thing that they all do seem to have in common is the rejection of conventional society.... and doing things for their own enjoyment (which I guess was the point.... so, good job.... I guess) and self gratification, at the expense of a stable life and financial security. 
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