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It's not necessary to avoid talking at all. While I think we certainly "got into it" a bit in this thread, I promise you it won't dominate any other discussions or spill over into other threads. I respect your views and opinions and I think there are plenty of things we would agree on in terms of parenting. I wish you all the best as well and look forward to any future conversations.
I guess I think it is. I think you have read things I have said and attributed meansing to them that were not intended that I don't even see as present. That I think you place a high degree of focus on consequences is somehow an accusation. You have asked repeatedly the difference I place between punishment and consequence, I tell you repeatedly, then you accuse me of dodging the question. I don't know how else to make you understand. So you, rather nastily, tell me I am saying something other than I am saying and that EVERYONE doesn't understand what I am saying because it is not understandable. (As evidenced by PMs and whatnot, this is just not the case btw.) And then you accuse me of motives I just don't have.
There are some people we can talk to and get. When my husband says I had a thought, and I reply did it hurt, he knows I am joking. But when I speak to my mother, though I understand every English word she is saying, our assumptions, filters and starting points are so different that I can never understand her meaning. Language alone is insufficient to bridge that gap to understanding.
I have no wish to get into a pissing match with you over who said and meant what. I know what I have said. And I know what I have meant by it. If I have failed to achieve understanding from you, then I will get over it. I am sure what you have said has not been meant in any way insulting or offensive. So I will roll with that.
Just what I was trying to say, only you said it better. Some methods work for some kids, and don't for others, which is why nobody's way is wrong.
See this is the thing that I have a problem with. I would agree that it is a fact that there are many, many versions and interpretations of right. What I cannot agree that the converse is true. I see bestness, what we strive to give our kids, as a continuum. On one extreme end is let's say achieving good behavior (or at least cowed behavior) by beating the crap out your kids so they are too scared to do anything. I think we would all agree that that is on the bad side of the continuum. But I think the good side of the continuum is something that stretches in front of us and is worth striving to think about.
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The thought of going to school with uncombed hair is enough to get my dd moving, but she doesn't care if she misses school. Another poster described a child who could care less about her hair, but didn't want to miss school. So obviously what works for my child wouldn't work for hers, and vice versa.
That is why I have such a hard time when someone tries to pin me down on a specific scenario. If MY child were dawdling, I would do this and this and this. But I don't know your kids. So I say something like if it is time for consequences, I think the consequences are best when natural if possible, logical otherwise.
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Another example is the one about picking up toys, where one poster described a way of getting your kid to clean up was by telling them that the toy was lonely or wanted to get in the toybox, or singing songs or something like that. If my dd is absorbed in another activity, she could care less about the toys loneliness or anything else.
Yup. You are spot on. You are thinking of the situation, the why, what is going on in your daughter's head. Not the what, not the toys.
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Turn the TV off, take away whatever activity she is doing, and let her know she cannot continue until everything is cleaned up is what works for me. Maybe that is punitive, but so is life. Even as an adult, there are consequences for actions.
That is not punitive. Taking away her DS, or some other completely unrelated punishment that has nothing to do with the issue at hand, would be. But getting her attention is not punishment.
I guess I think it is. I think you have read things I have said and attributed meansing to them that were not intended that I don't even see as present. That I think you place a high degree of focus on consequences is somehow an accusation. You have asked repeatedly the difference I place between punishment and consequence, I tell you repeatedly, then you accuse me of dodging the question. I don't know how else to make you understand. So you, rather nastily, tell me I am saying something other than I am saying and that EVERYONE doesn't understand what I am saying because it is not understandable. (As evidenced by PMs and whatnot, this is just not the case btw.) And then you accuse me of motives I just don't have.
There are some people we can talk to and get. When my husband says I had a thought, and I reply did it hurt, he knows I am joking. But when I speak to my mother, though I understand every English word she is saying, our assumptions, filters and starting points are so different that I can never understand her meaning. Language alone is insufficient to bridge that gap to understanding.
I have no wish to get into a pissing match with you over who said and meant what. I know what I have said. And I know what I have meant by it. If I have failed to achieve understanding from you, then I will get over it. I am sure what you have said has not been meant in any way insulting or offensive. So I will roll with that.
That is why I have such a hard time when someone tries to pin me down on a specific scenario. If MY child were dawdling, I would do this and this and this. But I don't know your kids. So I say something like if it is time for consequences, I think the consequences are best when natural if possible, logical otherwise.
Yup. You are spot on. You are thinking of the situation, the why, what is going on in your daughter's head. Not the what, not the toys.
Yah that is a really interesting point. What does it mean to be meaningful? That was pretty much what bothered me about the lateness consequence, but that consequence was meaningful to that child.
For example, in my experience, there was only one child in my care who was not motivated in the slightest by concern for another's hurt. The standard consequence of hurt, remedy and amends, was not enough for him. Since he didn't CARE that he hurt someone else' feelings, he needed to be removed in order for the consequence to have meaning. For the other kids, the realization that they had hurt another was enough. Making it right, remedy and amends, brought that to the fore of their attention and was enough.
Indeed. I read about it briefly. Just goes to show I no nothing about psychology. The problem I have with "conditioning" is it is goaled behavior modification which is part of the deal, but not the whole deal. I would fear it would lack the education toward judgement, empathy... Not sure though.
Good question re: "meaningful." I guess what I meant, operational definition-wise, is how salient (strong) the consequence (in this case, just meaning the effect in a cause and effect relationship) is as a motivator. As an example, I love chocolate - if you want to reinforce me, give me chocolate! Is this arbitrary? Yup. Will I work hard to get it? You bet. And now for the exception: if you have been reinforcing me with chocolate all day, I might decide I'm full and not really willing to do much work to get more. At that point in time, chocolate is no longer a salient reinforcer for me. It might be again for me tomorrow, but not in this moment. You can substitute just about anything for chocolate (arbitrary or not) - praise, a feeling of accomplishment, playing a favorite game, making someone else smile, having a clean living room, a sticker on a chart, ad nauseam.
I think you make a great point about what worked for most of the daycare kiddos to change their behavior wasn't powerful enough to change this one child's behavior. So you found the thing that did work. IMO, that's the end goal - is it working for this specific individual?
Lol re: psychology. Honestly, there are a lot of misconceptions about behaviorism and behavior modification floating around (even in books specifically geared towards parenting). I think part of the confusion is that it has a lot of "levels" if you will - the more macro way-to-describe-naturally-occurring behavior and the more micro how-to-change-a-specific-behavior. I think some of the terms (like consequence, punishment, reward) have taken on a life of their own in the vernacular that were never intended in the theory.
I don't want to make assumptions about how you view behavior modification, so this is just the "general you": frequently my clients entered treatment with the idea that behavior modification strategies were very rigid, punishment oriented, rule-governed, robot-child/person creating strategies. IMO, nothing could be further from the truth. A solid behavior modification program seeks to "channel" what motivates a specific person to help that person engage in prosocial behaviors (or get rid of problematic behaviors), giving the person a way to think about "if I do X, Y will happen" (developing the ability to guess what is likely to happen and adjust our behavior accordingly, which I might lump under "judgment").
Some of the most powerful reinforcers/ consequences can be things like noticing how our actions make someone else feel (which I would lump under"empathy") or how they make us feel (proud of ourselves, ashamed of ourselves). IMO, a lot of the behaviorally oriented parenting books don't emphasize this point enough. Also, a solid behavior modification intervention is going to focus heavily on what can be positively reinforced (like praise) or extinguished (not fulfilling a request given in a whiny or demanding voice, for example), rather than heavy focus on punishment. Mainly because positive reinforcement and extinction are more "powerful" motivators. Not that there isn't a place for punishment, but it tends to be more effective when used judiciously. Just a note on "punishment" : what I mean is something that makes it less likely for one to engage in a behavior again in the future. Again, it can be an intrinsic punisher, like feeling badly if I hurt someone else's feelings, just as easily as it can be an extrinsic punisher (adding an aversive consequence). Intrinsic motivators tend to be more powerful - one way (but not the only way) to foster them is to apply extrinsic motivators first (paired with the intrinsic motivator) until the intrinsic ones "take hold" on their own.
Not sure how clearly I'm presenting this (3 month old, sleepy mommy brain!). My other thought is if behaviorism isn't the language one chooses to speak in, that's cool, too. It certainly need not be the be all and end all of parenting (how boring would that be!). It's just how I orient to understanding humans.
ETA: CharlotteGal - I agree principle-driven rather than rule-governed is more effective.
Last edited by eastwesteastagain; 01-12-2012 at 11:41 AM..
Bingo. The last few posts have been a nice summation. It all circles back to doing what's best for you and yours. I participate in threads like these to share what has worked for me, but also to learn what has worked for others and maybe it's my learning style but that desire makes me ask pointed questions and try to poke holes in things so I can understand better.
I think a lot of people who participate in threads like these are also trying to gain a better understanding or are dealing with a situation where what worked in the past is no longer working as well.
Thanks, NJGoat! I totally agree with both bolded statements. I have enjoyed your contributions to the thread.
I have a similar learning style, especially when I get on a roll with "academic voice." Usually, I'm just excited about the topic, but speaking only for myself, I know it can come off other than I intend it to, at times.
I don't want to make assumptions about how you view behavior modification, so this is just the "general you": frequently my clients entered treatment with the idea that behavior modification strategies were very rigid, punishment oriented, rule-governed, robot-child/person creating strategies. IMO, nothing could be further from the truth. A solid behavior modification program seeks to "channel" what motivates a specific person to help that person engage in prosocial behaviors (or get rid of problematic behaviors), giving the person a way to think about "if I do X, Y will happen" (developing the ability to guess what is likely to happen and adjust our behavior accordingly, which I might lump under "judgment").
Some of the most powerful reinforcers/ consequences can be things like noticing how our actions make someone else feel (which I would lump under"empathy") or how they make us feel (proud of ourselves, ashamed of ourselves). IMO, a lot of the behaviorally oriented parenting books don't emphasize this point enough.
Yes!
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Also, a solid behavior modification intervention is going to focus heavily on what can be positively reinforced (like praise) or extinguished (not fulfilling a request given in a whiny or demanding voice, for example), rather than heavy focus on punishment. Mainly because positive reinforcement and extinction are more "powerful" motivators. Not that there isn't a place for punishment, but it tends to be more effective when used judiciously. Just a note on "punishment" : what I mean is something that makes it less likely for one to engage in a behavior again in the future. Again, it can be an intrinsic punisher, like feeling badly if I hurt someone else's feelings, just as easily as it can be an extrinsic punisher (adding an aversive consequence). Intrinsic motivators tend to be more powerful - one way (but not the only way) to foster them is to apply extrinsic motivators first (paired with the intrinsic motivator) until the intrinsic ones "take hold" on their own.
Not sure how clearly I'm presenting this (3 month old, sleepy mommy brain!). My other thought is if behaviorism isn't the language one chooses to speak in, that's cool, too. It certainly need not be the be all and end all of parenting (how boring would that be!). It's just how I orient to understanding humans.
ETA: CharlotteGal - I agree principle-driven rather than rule-governed is more effective.
mmmmm I have been using incorrect language. I have been educated to what behaviorism means. Thanks for that.
See this is the thing that I have a problem with. I would agree that it is a fact that there are many, many versions and interpretations of right. What I cannot agree that the converse is true. I see bestness, what we strive to give our kids, as a continuum. On one extreme end is let's say achieving good behavior (or at least cowed behavior) by beating the crap out your kids so they are too scared to do anything. I think we would all agree that that is on the bad side of the continuum. But I think the good side of the continuum is something that stretches in front of us and is worth striving to think about.
Yes, there are some methods that are flat out wrong, and by that I mean extreme or abusive methods. Any way that doesn't harm the child physically or emotionally will probably not do any harm, but again, it depends on the child. Some kids aren't fazed at all by a spanking, and other kids would be completely devastated. Some kids respond well to talking things out, others need to see some action behind the words. It also depends on the situation and the child's age and maturity level, so you're right that there's no particular method that anybody can swear by.
As far as unrelated consequences, such as taking away the DS for not cleaning her room, I personally wouldn't have a problem with that. The bottom line would be, if you can't do what is required of you in this house, then you don't get to enjoy extras, like video games and tv. Those are privileges, not necessities, and things that should be earned and deserved.
And even though I say that now, my dd is still pretty young, and I haven't really found it necessary to come up with any real punishments yet. When the time comes, I may be singing a whole different tune.
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Usually, I'm just excited about the topic, but speaking only for myself, I know it can come off other than I intend it to, at times.
