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I know that breast-feeding is a natural, healthy thing that (I've been told) feels kinda good and satisfying, but so is taking a nice, big, steaming dump and you don't see people doing that in full view of everyone else (and even if there wasn't any *ahem* evidence or health hazard left at the scene, I doubt folks would be in favor of public 'squat ins').
I don't know if this is a funny analogy or... um... a weird one...
Okay Emonellie, you are entitled to your opinion. You should really take it on a case by case basis and try to ignore it (even the women who want "attention" as that only eggs them on).
Of course I take it on a case by case basis. Most breastfeeding women are modest and nobody cares what they do.
It is the "lactivists" (yes, that is what they call themselves), that want to make this an attention seeking or political thing.
People are going to start avoiding Applesbee's like the plague if it becomes a place known for immodest or attention seeking breastfeeding "lactivists" making their pitiful point.
I don't like any "in your face" types. Stay out of my personal space and I'll stay out of yours.
I don't like any "in your face" types. Stay out of my personal space and I'll stay out of yours.
Do you really mean that? Yeah! Just kidding...
Hey, I get what you are saying... FYI I cover up. I've never shown my breast accidentally or otherwise (for my own comfort not for someone else's). But I'd never tell anyone else to do it in a million years - leave the breastfeeding women and their children alone and they won't turn into "lactivist."
Last edited by mommabear2; 09-09-2007 at 06:06 PM..
Yet you are the one who thinks that your comfort level trumps the needs of the nursing mother and child. There is no "right" for you not to be offended, yet the nursing mother does have a right under the law to breastfeed in public. But you still think that your comfort level is most important somehow.
I have nursed my daughter in public many, many times, but have only had a negative comment once. Every other time, people either didn't notice, didn't care, or were supportive. So the folks that are offended do not seem to be the majority at all. So I should make myself and my baby definitely uncomfortable all the time based on the remote possibility that someone like you will be present that time and feel uncomfortable?
I am the one who thinks that, say 30 or 40 people in a restaurant disgust level trumps the needs of 1 ignorant, immodest or militant woman who wants to make a very public display because IT IS HER RIGHT!!! Not just my comfort level, the comfort level of a vast majority.
I'm sure you didn't get negative comments because you showed some common sense. Why are you not understanding that the vast majority of people don't care if women nurse, but are really offended at the militant, public displays to either cause problems or get attention?
I am the one who thinks that, say 30 or 40 people in a restaurant disgust level trumps the needs of 1 ignorant, immodest or militant woman who wants to make a very public display because IT IS HER RIGHT!!! Not just my comfort level, the comfort level of a vast majority.
I'm sure you didn't get negative comments because you showed some common sense. Why are you not understanding that the vast majority of people don't care if women nurse, but are really offended at the militant, public displays to either cause problems or get attention?
I never cover my baby with a blanket. She doesn't like it, it's hot, she would pull it away. I see no reason to use a blanket for discretion anyway. You really can't see my boob when I'm breastfeeding because my baby's head is covering it, and my shirt is on top of that. This is how most women breastfeed. Other people don't even know that you are doing it lots of times and it just looks like you are holding or cuddling your baby. I've had people get right up to me and stroke her head and not realize she was nursing. So I'm just trying to say, that covering with a blanket is really not necessary. Using a blanket would probably call more attention to your breastfeeding than not using a blanket. The woman at the Kentucky Applebees, was nursing discreetly, but without a blanket, just like I would do.
I also completely disagree with you that 30-40 people in the restaurant feel uncomfortable. I think that usually nobody cares, and the uncomfortable are few and far between. As I say, I do not use a blanket, and have only been approached once. If 30-40 people were offended every time I nursed in public, I think that I would have heard a lot more about it. I do not at all think that you are part of the "vast majority". Perhaps we experience regional differences.
For the record, the law in my own state does not mention discretion. Instead, it states that a mother may breastfeed her child in any location, public or private, where she is otherwise authorized to be, irrespective of whether the nipple of her breast is uncovered during or incidental to the breastfeeding. This is also common language for breastfeeding legislation. In Kentucky, where the original Applebees incident happened, they also have a provision that says you may not interfere with a woman breastfeeding her child.
I firmly believe that a woman should be able to feel comfortable breastfeeding her baby in any location and with the same level of discretion as a woman who is bottle-feeding her baby. As long as people view breastfeeding as something dirty, gross, shameful, indecent, etc, women will choose not to breastfeed or will choose to stop breastfeeding early because of the negative societal messages. If we tell mothers that breast is best, but we don't want to see it, we are giving conflicting messages. Considering that only 1 in 5 babies is still breastfed at the AAP recommended 12 month minimum, I don't think that the right message is coming across, and I think we need a change.
I never cover my baby with a blanket. She doesn't like it, it's hot, she would pull it away. I see no reason to use a blanket for discretion anyway. You really can't see my boob when I'm breastfeeding because my baby's head is covering it, and my shirt is on top of that. This is how most women breastfeed. Other people don't even know that you are doing it lots of times and it just looks like you are holding or cuddling your baby. I've had people get right up to me and stroke her head and not realize she was nursing. So I'm just trying to say, that covering with a blanket is really not necessary. Using a blanket would probably call more attention to your breastfeeding than not using a blanket. The woman at the Kentucky Applebees, was nursing discreetly, but without a blanket, just like I would do.
I also completely disagree with you that 30-40 people in the restaurant feel uncomfortable. I think that usually nobody cares, and the uncomfortable are few and far between. As I say, I do not use a blanket, and have only been approached once. If 30-40 people were offended every time I nursed in public, I think that I would have heard a lot more about it. I do not at all think that you are part of the "vast majority". Perhaps we experience regional differences.
For the record, the law in my own state does not mention discretion. Instead, it states that a mother may breastfeed her child in any location, public or private, where she is otherwise authorized to be, irrespective of whether the nipple of her breast is uncovered during or incidental to the breastfeeding. This is also common language for breastfeeding legislation. In Kentucky, where the original Applebees incident happened, they also have a provision that says you may not interfere with a woman breastfeeding her child.
I firmly believe that a woman should be able to feel comfortable breastfeeding her baby in any location and with the same level of discretion as a woman who is bottle-feeding her baby. As long as people view breastfeeding as something dirty, gross, shameful, indecent, etc, women will choose not to breastfeed or will choose to stop breastfeeding early because of the negative societal messages. If we tell mothers that breast is best, but we don't want to see it, we are giving conflicting messages. Considering that only 1 in 5 babies is still breastfed at the AAP recommended 12 month minimum, I don't think that the right message is coming across, and I think we need a change.
I give up. If you don't see the difference in somebody being militant and in your face and making "most" people uncomfortable, so be it. I'm never said women had to cover up with a blanket...JUST USE SOME DISCRETION. I would bet $1,000 that the original ding dong from Kentucky that is bringing all this angst upon Applebees could have chosen a nice table that had a bit of privacy and fed her baby and the management would have never gotten involved. If you know the actual details of this situation, pls post them or give a link.
I just want to point out that, as a breastfeeding mother of 7, I have ALWAYS tried to nurse discreetly when in public. I am very modest - I don't wear tank tops or anything that ever shows cleavage at all. I was raped many years ago, and since then have always been wary of "that" kind of attention.
I do NOT want people looking at me when I breastfeed, and I do search for a quiet spot when I need to nurse in public.
For my first 5 children, I always used a baby blanket when out in public.
My last 2, however, will not put up with it. Not with a "napkin" over the face, either. Nothing. The babies wanted to LOOK at me while I nursed them. I still try to find a quiet spot, but it's not always possible.
Regarding nursing in the car first - Right! Obviously the poster who asked that has never breastfed a baby. You can't DECIDE when a baby will want to nurse. The baby decides that.
It's been my experience that they tend to want to eat as soon as the food arrives at a restaurant - they smell it and get hungry.
Regarding the mother that this happened to - she had specifically asked for a corner table where she would be out of the way, she faced towards the corner, as well. She has been nursing for something like 16 years (mother of 8) and only ever once had a rude comment, and that was 16 years ago.
It seems to me that there was a customer who went WAY out of their way to try to see something - or, more likely, only knew that there was a nursing baby, and therefore was offended just at the mere thought of it.
Oh - for the woman disgusted by the baby with suckling sounds - you hit a nerve with me. My youngest is a loud nurser sometimes. He's an adorable little boy, but he's exuberant in life in general. Once I nursed him, when I could still keep a blanket over him, but we were sitting waiting in a doctor's office, and there was a young man next to me. The baby kept making these, "Mmm... mmmm... mmmm" noises. He was very happy to be nursing, I guess, he used to do that a lot. I was SOOOO embarrassed. Luckily, the man next to me sorta blushed, but smiled, like "that's really cute" and he had no problem with me breastfeeding my baby OR with the baby being noisy.
Realize that YOUR discomfort with the sounds of nursing is just YOUR discomfort. Just as MY discomfort nursing a noisy baby in public was only MY discomfort. I didn't leave the house often, but when I had to go somewhere, that's how it was. The baby has to be fed. My own issues are my own.
For the record, ANYONE who would intentionally attempt to shame a woman during breastfeeding is potentially harming the innocent infant. The last thing that baby needs is unhealthy milk, and stress can affect the milk.
If someone is rude, ignore them. Glaring at a breastfeeding mother is NOT helping her baby.
I'd be way more offended by a bunch of men looking at Maxim magazine (FULL of breasts - DISPLAYED IN PUBLIC!!!!!!!!!) than at a noisily slurping baby!
And don't assume the mother whose rights were violated was doing anything wrong. After reading her statements, and after speaking with several managers at Applebees restaurants, and after calling the corporate offices, it really sounds like she was behaving perfectly well.
I am the one who thinks that, say 30 or 40 people in a restaurant disgust level trumps the needs of 1 ignorant, immodest or militant woman who wants to make a very public display because IT IS HER RIGHT!!! Not just my comfort level, the comfort level of a vast majority.
I'm sure you didn't get negative comments because you showed some common sense. Why are you not understanding that the vast majority of people don't care if women nurse, but are really offended at the militant, public displays to either cause problems or get attention?
Elmonellie, we all have different comfort levels, so I'm not saying there's anything wrong with this per se, but you seem to have issues with quite a few groups of people. Well, all little people so far, I guess. You don't like children in restaurants unless they act a way specific to your comfort level; you didn't approve of the ADHD little boy playing baseball; and you don't approve of breastfeeding in public.
That's fine, but it might behoove you, in light of your sensitivities, to be the one to stay home rather than the children or adults who are bothering you, only because we're talking quite a few people here and quite a few potential bothers to you.
As to your repeating that mothers expose their breasts for attention, again, not pointing fingers because we all do this--myself included--but rather than looking to the other person as the problem, you might want to try to investigate why you would feel this way. Perhaps your discomfort with breastfeeding is because *you* can't subconsciously see the breast except as a pleasure item for adults. Depending upon your age, the past generation or two was definitely raised this way so it wouldn't be your fault. But it warrants some internal investigation, I feel. Repeating that women breastfeed children in order to expose their breasts just has an underlying...something, I don't know. I can't quite put my finger on it but it just sort of feels to me, from the way you word your posts, that this is something with you and not with them.
You have stated a few times that there's a huge percentage of offended people and only one bothersome person in these various scenarios. But if you add them all up, obviously it isn't slanted this way--rather, it's you who seem to have the problem with whole groups of children or children's actions, or things involving children, even feeding them. It is a new world, and sometimes it's hard to move with the times, but seeing breasts as not just something "dirty" is one thing the U.S. has been very, very slow to catch up on and frankly, that view itself really isn't healthy. We all know what happens when you try to hide something--people flock to see what that something is and it actually gets more overblown than it would have been if it had been treated naturally in the first place.
As to covering up, I always tried to cover up when I breastfed, but if you do the nine million acceptable things in order not to offend a single soul, you can be sure that this draws MORE attention. OMG. Try shuffling a baby again and again under a blanket while he lets go to cry in protest and wiggle and everything just sort of falls out of place, leaving you exposed. Now THAT'S embarrassment. Or those enormous things that snap around the mother's neck and flow down like an oversized bizarre bib to cover the entire baby? Oh now THAT doesn't stand out or anything. It's interesting that when the mother is breastfeeding, generally, you can't see the nipple. It's covered. Yet it's considered "dirty" or "gross" to some people even though a bikini top, which will expose just as much, is considered sexy. We just really, really have some catching up to do in this country as far as moving past the fourth grade when "boobies" were "eeeeeeeeeew" or "oh LOOK at that". It takes time, though. I personally have never seen a woman actually expose her entire breast in a restaurant. I think you'd actually have to take your shirt off to do that--the opposite is actually what usually happens, with the pushed-up shirt inching back down constantly and bugging the heck out of the baby.
I would bet $1,000 that the original ding dong from Kentucky that is bringing all this angst upon Applebees could have chosen a nice table that had a bit of privacy and fed her baby and the management would have never gotten involved. If you know the actual details of this situation, pls post them or give a link.
The link was in the OP, but it has been edited out by the mods. In fact, the entire OP has been edited so it is now a copy of the post I made in the Raleigh forum, which is really not that relevant to you guys here in the parenting forum. The original OP had the link to find out where the events were being held nationwide as well as to press coverage about the issue so you could find out more about it. I didn't realize until now that it wasn't there anymore, so if you didn't have a chance to see it, I'm sorry that I assumed you had.
Anyway, the Kentucky mother asked for a corner booth and sat facing the corner, not the rest of the room, so you are quite wrong on that count. Here is a link to her own description of what happened. By the way, none of this is disputed either by the manager or the franchisee or Applebees corporate.
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and you don't see people doing that in full view of everyone else (and even if there wasn't any *ahem* evidence or health hazard left at the scene, I doubt folks would be in favor of public 'squat ins'). 
blankets
It's interesting that when the mother is breastfeeding, generally, you can't see the nipple. It's covered. Yet it's considered "dirty" or "gross" to some people even though a bikini top, which will expose just as much, is considered sexy. We just really, really have some catching up to do in this country as far as moving past the fourth grade when "boobies" were "eeeeeeeeeew" or "oh LOOK at that". It takes time, though. I personally have never seen a woman actually expose her entire breast in a restaurant. I think you'd actually have to take your shirt off to do that--the opposite is actually what usually happens, with the pushed-up shirt inching back down constantly and bugging the heck out of the baby. 
j/k