Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Since you asked for specifics about Brooke Ryan, the mother at Applebee's, here you go:
She has 8 children. Some of them took her to Applebees for lunch, in celebration of her anniversary.
She asked for a corner table, out of the way. She faced towards the wall (the corner) for privacy.
She did not have a blanket with her because it's hot - summertime in Kentucky. I can understand this, as I normally don't carry blankets, either, I just stick a diaper in my purse. Remember, she has 8 kids. I have 7, and I belong to lists of moms with large families - it's pretty much universal that as the family grows, the baggage diminishes. We don't carry more with us than absolutely necessary, as so much attention has to go into watching all the kids and keeping everyone organized. There is nothing unusual in this.
She had the Kentucky law with her, yes. This actually isn't unusual, either. As breastfeeding is once again becoming "normal" more women are doing it, and some moms HAVE been discriminated against. It makes sense to be prepared. In the past few years, women have been told they cannot breastfeed in: Borders, ToysRUs, on an airline, in a state park, etc. Not long before the Applebees incident, a mom was KICKED OFF AN AIRPLANE for breastfeeding - she and her infant were stranded. Everything was packed and on the plane, and she didn't even have diapers for her infant, almost everything was packed away and flew off to her destination.
Moms are learning that we need to be prepared to defend our rights with the law.
I find nothing unusual in her having the law at hand.
So she was told by the waitress that she had to cover with a blanket or leave. She said she didn't have a blanket, it was summertime. The waitress told her she could NOT then breastfeed in the restaurant.
The mother handed her baby to her 18 year old son. The baby started crying - his lunch was disrupted - and she told her kids to go to the car and wait for her. She asked to speak to the manager.
The manager told her she could not breastfeed without a blanket in the restaurant.
She then showed him the law.
The law specifically states that breastfeeding mothers can nurse their children wherever they have the right to be WITHOUT INTERFERENCE.
The manager read it, then handed it back. And told her she could not breastfeed there without a blanket.
(At this point, I'm wondering why ANYONE would think the manager was justified in committing a criminal offense against this mother...)
She left, went to her van, and CRIED.
Her children have been affected by this. She wrote that one of them wants to go "fight" the people who did this at the restaurant. The baby has a rash (probably from stress hormones resulting from this whole thing!) and the family has generally been upset by this.
The mom offered to sign something stating she would NOT sue Applebees over this incident.
All she wanted was an assurance that Applebees would not do this to another woman. Applebee's response to her lawyers was that they found the manager's (violations of the law) appropriate, and that they were considering stocking blankets in their restaurants for future guests.
This was not good enough.
As I've stated, some babies will NOT be covered up.
Do you know that when babies are born their vision is EXACTLY the distance from the mother's breast to the mother's eyes? Even nature seems to have planned for babies to be able to nurse and look at mommy from the very first moment of their lies.
I prefer to cover with a blanket, but I can think of a hundred reasons why it might be impractical under different circumstances.
Brooke Ryan, from every angle I can look at this, did NOTHING wrong. She attempted to be discreet (and probably WAS discreet) and was feeding her baby.
Someone took offense, and the law was broken in an attempt to appease a customer who had no real chance of seeing any breast at all, anyway, but just didn't like the idea of a woman feeding her baby in a restaurant.
I'm a little surprised at how the rest of the world isn't up in arms that a restaurant manager could break a law - after being shown the law - in violation of basic human rights, and could keep his job!
The link was in the OP, but it has been edited out by the mods. In fact, the entire OP has been edited so it is now a copy of the post I made in the Raleigh forum, which is really not that relevant to you guys here in the parenting forum. The original OP had the link to find out where the events were being held nationwide as well as to press coverage about the issue so you could find out more about it. I didn't realize until now that it wasn't there anymore, so if you didn't have a chance to see it, I'm sorry that I assumed you had.
Anyway, the Kentucky mother asked for a corner booth and sat facing the corner, not the rest of the room, so you are quite wrong on that count. Here is a link to her own description of what happened. By the way, none of this is disputed either by the manager or the franchisee or Applebees corporate.
I've read the mother's account of asking for and sitting in a corner booth, facing the corner and being modest. I would like to read what the waitress, manager and complaining patrons have to say about this before I send you the $1,000....
Elmonellie, we all have different comfort levels, so I'm not saying there's anything wrong with this per se, but you seem to have issues with quite a few groups of people. Well, all little people so far, I guess. You don't like children in restaurants unless they act a way specific to your comfort level; you didn't approve of the ADHD little boy playing baseball; and you don't approve of breastfeeding in public.
That's fine, but it might behoove you, in light of your sensitivities, to be the one to stay home rather than the children or adults who are bothering you, only because we're talking quite a few people here and quite a few potential bothers to you.
As to your repeating that mothers expose their breasts for attention, again, not pointing fingers because we all do this--myself included--but rather than looking to the other person as the problem, you might want to try to investigate why you would feel this way. Perhaps your discomfort with breastfeeding is because *you* can't subconsciously see the breast except as a pleasure item for adults. Depending upon your age, the past generation or two was definitely raised this way so it wouldn't be your fault. But it warrants some internal investigation, I feel. Repeating that women breastfeed children in order to expose their breasts just has an underlying...something, I don't know. I can't quite put my finger on it but it just sort of feels to me, from the way you word your posts, that this is something with you and not with them.
You have stated a few times that there's a huge percentage of offended people and only one bothersome person in these various scenarios. But if you add them all up, obviously it isn't slanted this way--rather, it's you who seem to have the problem with whole groups of children or children's actions, or things involving children, even feeding them. It is a new world, and sometimes it's hard to move with the times, but seeing breasts as not just something "dirty" is one thing the U.S. has been very, very slow to catch up on and frankly, that view itself really isn't healthy. We all know what happens when you try to hide something--people flock to see what that something is and it actually gets more overblown than it would have been if it had been treated naturally in the first place.
As to covering up, I always tried to cover up when I breastfed, but if you do the nine million acceptable things in order not to offend a single soul, you can be sure that this draws MORE attention. OMG. Try shuffling a baby again and again under a blanket while he lets go to cry in protest and wiggle and everything just sort of falls out of place, leaving you exposed. Now THAT'S embarrassment. Or those enormous things that snap around the mother's neck and flow down like an oversized bizarre bib to cover the entire baby? Oh now THAT doesn't stand out or anything. It's interesting that when the mother is breastfeeding, generally, you can't see the nipple. It's covered. Yet it's considered "dirty" or "gross" to some people even though a bikini top, which will expose just as much, is considered sexy. We just really, really have some catching up to do in this country as far as moving past the fourth grade when "boobies" were "eeeeeeeeeew" or "oh LOOK at that". It takes time, though. I personally have never seen a woman actually expose her entire breast in a restaurant. I think you'd actually have to take your shirt off to do that--the opposite is actually what usually happens, with the pushed-up shirt inching back down constantly and bugging the heck out of the baby.
Since you seem curious about my opinions, I'll try to answer your post.
I don't have "issues", whatever that means, with children. I do have opinions. I'm a parent. I have reactions to bad parenting and out of control children, or with parents that have obviously troubled kids being in places where they will surely not be able to control themselves. Or parents, like the guy with the kid on PW football, who want special accomodations when his son is obviously unable to play by the rules everyone else plays by.
I responded to the original post because I am co-writing a book on how our culture is changing in silly ways. Militant public breastfeeding is one of hundreds of topics that we are writing about. This is one of many, many msg boards I go on to get a taste of public opinion on these issues. My opinions are firming up pretty fast that in this particular situation, the mother WAS indeed looking for validation, attention, or just feels very sure it is her mission to "spread the word". Honest, *****...I don't have a prudish personality, am not looking to go back to the 1950's or have a sexual festish or aversion to breasts or breast feeding.
Yes, as you said it is a new world. Full of a lot of political correctness, me, me, me attitudes and some parents that seem to live through their children to an odd degree. i.e., super Mommy breastfeeding activist who is on a mission and in everyone's face, the parents of "gifted" children, who even though they are pretty low achievers must be "indigos" and very special indeed, the proliferation of bi-polar/adhd kids, etc.
Again, I don't see anything right or wrong about public breastfeeding. Most people, like me don't care if it is done with some decorum. What MOST people care about is the coarsening of the culture, entitlement attitudes and having to accept some pretty outlandish behavior when they are just trying to mind their own business.
My opinions are firming up pretty fast that in this particular situation, the mother WAS indeed looking for validation, attention, or just feels very sure it is her mission to "spread the word".
I'm trying to see where you are getting this from. You've read the mother's account. Nobody from the manager, the franchisee, or Applebee's corporate has disputed her statement at all. They have given responses that included saying that they would consider stocking blankets in stores for nursing mothers and that they feel that their request of her was legitimate, but they have not disputed her statement. On what basis do you dispute it?
You know, Elmonellie, maybe the mother was just trying to feed the hungry baby, and have dinner with her family. Maybe it's as simple as that. The restaurant has no right, under the law as written in that state, to require her to use a blanket, or else leave. That's pretty simple too.
ShirleyK - thanks for all the information on the incident that brought this thread on... I didn't realize it was as bad as stated. Wow. I'm speechless...
Yeah, it was bad. I used to go to the Border's where a woman was told she could not breastfeed, and this same Border's proudly displayed books near the registers with naked women, and all the "lad mags" were visible to anyone who walked by. Nearly nude women in calendars.
This place was anything BUT discreet about these things, and I saw plenty of young women walking around in horrendously short skirts and tight and low-cut shirts. This is Los Angeles, after all.
But a mother feeding her child? Now, THAT has to stop. Breasts should only be used to sell magazines, beer, and cars!
You know, Elmonellie, maybe the mother was just trying to feed the hungry baby, and have dinner with her family. Maybe it's as simple as that. The restaurant has no right, under the law as written in that state, to require her to use a blanket, or else leave. That's pretty simple too.
I guess I don't understand the law as written. If the breastfeeding mother took her entire shirt off and turned (from the discreet corner she was in) to the crowd...is that okay under the law?
Correct me, if I am mistaken, but did anyone at Applebee's ask her to leave?
Correct me, if I am mistaken, but did anyone at Applebee's ask her to leave?
No, they did not. HOWEVER, they implied it. And under KY law, they should never have said a word to her.
According to this article: Applebee's confrontation turns breast-feeding mom to activism (broken link) the manager was aware of the law before he even approached her.
CEO, Mike Scanlon, of the Applebee's franchise Thomas and King who owns that Applebee's is quoted in that same paper here:
Quote:
"It is perfectly legal to breast-feed in public and we support that," Scanlon said. "I'm not sure the manager said cover the baby's head, I think he said cover yourself modestly. This was by no means intended as interference, but a request to do it modestly, which I believe is an appropriate response."
Here is the statement on the Thomas and King website:
Quote:
Statement on Breastfeeding Policy
September 6, 2007
Statement on Breastfeeding Policy Thomas & King is proud that, every day, dozens of mothers breastfeed their children in our restaurants.
We are known for providing a safe and hospitable environment for all families. Our policies regarding breastfeeding are consistent with the laws of the states
in which we operate.
While we believe our actions are consistent with creating a pleasant dining experience for all of our Guests, we always welcome opportunities to learn and are treating this situation as such an opportunity.
I guess I don't understand the law as written. If the breastfeeding mother took her entire shirt off and turned (from the discreet corner she was in) to the crowd...is that okay under the law?
(shrug) Who knows? Maybe you can research the law to find out if you really need to know. In this case, and in no case that I've heard of in my entire life, even anecdotally, did a breastfeeding mother take off her entire shirt, but if it's bugging you that much, you could always ask a lawyer friend or Google it or what have you.
I'm not sure why this is bothering you so much. You seem to keep coming back to it, always putting a sexual undertone in there...she wants to expose her breasts; she wants to take off her shirt entirely. Honestly, a breast is a breast is a breast, who cares? Is it THAT dirty a thing? Only in the U.S. (or in the third grade) could this become this big a deal, in my opinion. For the love of Mike. It is a breast.
Also, you keep mentioning that breastfeeding is a ploy for attention. But you have also mentioned that talking on cell phones are a ploy for attention, and the PW football/ADHD issue. You seem to resent freedoms and minimize them to "attention-getting". Again, looking inwardly might be the key here. If you take these case by case, it doesn't seem very logical that all (or IMO, any--but that is just my opinion) of these actions could possibly be for attention, but since it is you who see entire groups in this light, it's probably time to look inward and wonder why you do. The Freud in me wants to say that you resent others receiving attention because you didn't receive enough of it, and you now see it everywhere you go. (Oh shut up, Freud. That darned Freud. GET BACK down there. That's okay...I can always stifle him with food.)
Oh, I just thought of something. You ask if it would be legal for the woman to have her shirt off. Well, it certainly seems to be legal if she chooses to do so in print and land on a magazine displayed right next to the Wrigley's gum at the Quick Check. So just offhand, without legal knowledge, I'd have to say, no, maybe it wouldn't be. On the other hand...this pretty much emphasizes that it's okay and legal to display 90% of a woman's breasts publicly, if it's for a man's pleasure; if it's for something like, I don't know, food, then it's cause for alarm and whole laws need to be enacted about it in order for mothers to be allowed to feed children. We have a serious case of arrested development going on in our culture...and a very very weird sense of what the human body is here for and what's "allowable".
Last edited by JerZ; 09-11-2007 at 12:44 PM..
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
j/k
It's interesting that when the mother is breastfeeding, generally, you can't see the nipple. It's covered. Yet it's considered "dirty" or "gross" to some people even though a bikini top, which will expose just as much, is considered sexy. We just really, really have some catching up to do in this country as far as moving past the fourth grade when "boobies" were "eeeeeeeeeew" or "oh LOOK at that". It takes time, though. I personally have never seen a woman actually expose her entire breast in a restaurant. I think you'd actually have to take your shirt off to do that--the opposite is actually what usually happens, with the pushed-up shirt inching back down constantly and bugging the heck out of the baby. 
