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Old 02-22-2012, 05:17 AM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,386 posts, read 35,392,178 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulFrank View Post
I don't want another child, BUT I DO want my wife and family. She wants another child and if she can't convince me, then she DOESN'T want me or our family as it is today.

Not that I can speak for my wife, but she would claim it's not just the miscarriage why she wants to do this. Claiming as she started to feel happy about having another baby that her body is just telling her she's not done. She's also attempted to flip it at me and state that by me not wanting a 5th child that I'm deciding I don't want this marriage anymore. This is far from the truth. Our marriage isn't perfect and she is consumed by taking care of the kids and the house, but to look at it all and say 'yeah you should be divorced' just doesn't add up.
That your wife is willing to throw away the family she has for another baby speaks volumes to her emotional instability. She need counseling. A 5th baby will not solve anything here even if she does leave if she doesn't get her way. It will just be some other ultimatim after she has her 5th baby. It sounds to me like your marriage is on the rocks and having a 5th child will not solve anything.

Your wife is playing games. She's delivering ultimatims to get her way. Partners in marriages don't do that. She's trying to manipulate you. This is immature, inconsiderate and selfish of her.

I'm almost inclined to tell you to call her bluff and have her move out (you stay with your kids since you're the one who actually wants your family.). Honestly, I think she wants out and this is just an excuse so she can blame you instead of herself. YOU didn't give her what she wanted so YOU don't want the marriage. The marriage has nothing to do with whehter or not you have a 5th child.

I'm sorry but it sounds like you are not in a great place. A 5th child would just delay the inevitable here. A 5th child isn't going to fix your marriage. One thing you need to ask yourself is do you really want a partner who stomps her feet and exclaims "IF you don't give me what I want, YOU don't wan our marriage." She's tying things together that shouldn't be. It's not like you promised to have a 5th child and renegged. You didn't. You never agreed to a 5th child.

And while you're at it, make an appointment for a vasectomy. You need to stop having "accidents"....which I'm not so sure really are accidents from what you're posting. If she's handling birth control and keeps having "accidents" there's a good chance they're not accidents at all and she's been manipulating you all along.
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Old 02-22-2012, 06:28 AM
 
Location: The Great State of Arkansas
5,981 posts, read 18,206,535 times
Reputation: 7732
I don't think she's playing games. The ultimatums really aren't - once she has a chance to step back and imagine her life without her husband, having to return to work, etc. - hopefully she will see that another baby wouldn't be in her future anyway. Men generally do not swarm a single mom with 4 kids, one of whom isn't even in preschool yet. But right now all she's thinking is BABY, and believe me...it is an all-consuming thought when it is the thing you want most, or think you want most.

As far as a vasectomy, yes - that sounds like an ace plan - but I think this is something this couple needs to agree on at some point in time rather than something he does arbitrarily. She's already feeling he doesn't consider her needs and wants (no matter how far that may be from the truth, it's the truth in her mind).

The OP's comment that his wife would attend counseling but quit if it started swaying her decision....that's just a hair off wonky. The idea would be to attend counseling and work through ALL issues, not pick and choose. I'm wondering what other issues might crop up and make her a dropout as well. I'm curious - did she seek any kind of help after the miscarriage? Did she have deep feelings of loss that weren't addressed at that time that might have precipitated her major crash? Was any grief counseling ever even recommended to her/you? Did her doctor ever suggest she wait a certain period of time before attempting pregnancy again, even though you say you both had no intention of more babies?

The fact that life was fine 10 days ago and now is in the crapper indicates something has changed. Or perhaps all was not fine and she was just putting on a face - now the cat is out of the bag and she's on a roll....but my gut tells me she is feeling crushing guilt over the discussion of terminating the pregnancy and then miscarrying - that perhaps it is her 'fault' she miscarried (i.e., if she had really wanted the baby from the very beginning this would have never happened and God is punishing her...and the only way to make it up is to have another baby). She may not even make the connection in her head as to the guilt factor.

Physician is the first stop to make sure there is nothing that physically could be causing her distress - postpartum depression, permimenopause, whatever hormone imbalance there might be. Unfortunately, the next step would be counseling for her or for the both of you, and you can't force her to listen or to address whatever happens to come up during these sessions. Much like recovering from anything else, she has to WANT to figure out what's going on, be open to solutions, and then go forward.

I think your best bet would be to try and keep the tiny line of communication open. Insist on a full physical for her, at the very least to determine that her body is even in a condition to go through with a pregnancy. That could potentially be the reason for the miscarriage anyway, that there is something physiologically wrong that needs to be corrected for her overall general health. Then attempt counseling to determine the right way to proceed for your family.

I have to admit - the "oopsy" pregnancies also send up a red flag to me, but my flags don't count here. There's only one way to make sure an accident absolutely doesn't happen, but for now I would suggest some form of birth control until her physical health is determined. At the very least it will buy you both some time - and I'm thinking she has a hole in her heart that ONLY time will heal.
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Old 02-22-2012, 06:41 AM
 
Location: Manhattan, Ks
1,280 posts, read 6,961,606 times
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I moderate an online forum for people suffering from miscarriage and stillbirth. Every woman's reaction to miscarriage is different, but I have a couple of ideas in your wife's case. First off, it's still very, very early in her grieving process. If in her mind this was the loss of a child, not just the loss of a pregnancy, then she still has a long way to go. Often the first and strongest impulse after a pregnancy loss is to get pregnant again immediately. This is not at all unusual. We all know that you can't replace a child but the urge can be so strong it feels like a need rather than a want. In some cases, pregnancy loss can also feel like an immense failure. She may be wanting to prove to herself that she can have another healthy baby. Also consider that this loss may be compounded by the impending loss of her reproductive life. For some women the knowledge that they soon won't be able to get pregnant and carry a child can be frightening, I would guess this is especially true for women whose identity is strongly based on being a mother.
None of this may make sense to you and that's ok. Grief isn't particularly sensible. If she is grieving, she is likely lost in her own emotions at the moment. This isn't something she should be expected to "get over" any time soon. (It sounds like you are being supportive) But if she's trying to make what sound like bad decisions at this point in time (another baby without your support or divorce) she would do well to seek counseling. She may just need an outside perspective or even just need the ear of someone who can help her navigate her grief without alienating those who love her. I wish you both all the best.
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Old 02-22-2012, 07:54 AM
 
Location: Boca Raton, FL
6,869 posts, read 11,175,696 times
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Smile Allow her to grieve

Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulFrank View Post
Actually, the miscarriage was just a couple months ago if that's the pragnancy you're referring to. Can you have post-partum after a couple months pragnant and losing the baby? I didn't think that was possible.
But you have 4 other kids that need both of you. Find a way to concentrate on them!
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Old 02-22-2012, 07:57 AM
 
Location: The Great State of Arkansas
5,981 posts, read 18,206,535 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kansas sky View Post
We all know that you can't replace a child but the urge can be so strong it feels like a need rather than a want.

None of this may make sense to you and that's ok. Grief isn't particularly sensible. If she is grieving, she is likely lost in her own emotions at the moment. This isn't something she should be expected to "get over" any time soon.

She may just need an outside perspective or even just need the ear of someone who can help her navigate her grief without alienating those who love her.
Many reps for the wisdom in this post. OP, most men cannot possibly understand the way a woman's head can make her have such a strong physical and mental desire for pregnancy that it's almost like hunger and is all-consuming. It just is for a woman who wants a baby...it just is.

Grief takes so many forms, and as kansas sky has noted, sometimes makes no sense other than to the bearer of the grief. "Navigate her grief" - that's a really powerful descriptive phrase. Visualize your wife taking her ship past a very rocky shoreline or through a storm at sea - she needs something to set her sights on to lead her home (which would be you), but she also needs a compass (which hopefully is a competent grief therapist). There is no way to reason this out logically or fix it immediately; it's going to take a ton of time and patience.

The grief will never completely vanish, but will dissipate with time. Love and support isn't enough, and counseling may not be enough. But hopefully the two together will mesh into a safety net that will hold your wife up until she is strong enough to stand on her own. Peace to you, your wife, and your children.
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Old 02-22-2012, 08:53 AM
 
Location: Wisconsin
7,214 posts, read 9,350,561 times
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Both of these people need serious marriage counseling. OP, if your wife won't agree to go, you need to at least go yourself to get some further perspective on this from a trained professional.
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Old 02-22-2012, 09:34 AM
 
Location: Western Washington
8,003 posts, read 11,681,185 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulFrank View Post
We have 4 great children. We started have kids late, our oldest is 8, then 4 (large gap I know), then 3, then 1. History has been we struggled to get pregnant the first time and my wife had to take meds to help her ovulate. I didn't feel like we were financially ready to have our first, but we did and it worked out fine. Our second we were not in a good place in our marriage, just not close and I felt like it should be over. In the end we worked it out and had second. The third we were both kinda surprised and were feeling pretty comfortable with two. My wife was afraid to tell me she was pragnant with our third, but I was perfectly fine with it. Then our fourth came as a complete surprise to us both and both of us wanted to really stop at 3. She was emotional about her body and not wanting to go through it all again. I was just feeling like we were good with 3. We both had mentally closed the door on more babies. In the end we came around and had our 4th. After that we were vocal to one another and others that we were done. This is where I should have had my vosectomy. I didn't and surprise we got pragnant again. You'd think we don't understand how these babies are made at this point. Again we were floored and didn't want to have another baby, so much so we even talked about terminating the pragnancy (terrible I know). We both came to our senses and knew we couldn't live with that, so it was on again. Time to get your mind ready for yet another baby. Then a week later my wife had a micarriage. This was bad news for us both, but frankly hit her way harder than it did me.

The fifth pragnancy happened before my 4th child was even one. So months have went by and my wife was on the fence when people would ask if we're having more. I on the other hand would a firmly say no more. Then my wife had a dream about being pragnant and I thought it brought back all her sadness. So I was being as supportive as possible and bought flowers and a card to let her know I'm here for her. Turns out her sadness was because she really wants a baby largely because she lost the 5th. Stating if I could just understand how she feels inside I would want one too.

I'll be 41 this year and she'll be 38. I've told her I don't want anymore kids because I will already be in my mid 60 or even 70 with a child still living in the home. I don't want the expense, the stress, the risk of an unhealthy baby, and I want a life after kids in the house. A little bit at least. Oh, and I also had to change our insurance and now we don't have maternity coverage.

None of this matters to my wife. She is on a personal mission to get this baby. She says she loves me and our family, but we are at extreme odds on this. Today she told me she is sick of me making all the decisions, which is news to me, and that she wants out. Sighting that I didn't let her baptize the kids the cathonic way (she's cathonic I'm not) and now I won't have another baby.

I'm feel like I'm in the twilight zone. Just 5 days ago we were painting and getting our 4th child's newly built room together and now I'm on my way to divorce? Really??

She feels counseling won't change either of our conflicting desires. She's just done and bringing up everything wrong just to justify it.

I'm devastated, scared for my kids and don't know what to do. I want to keep this thing together, but after listening to her maybe even having another child wouldn't keep this thing together. Very confused!!!
I say fight for the counselling thing! I don't know you or your wife, but I'm going to step out on a limb here by saying that she doesn't want to do counselling, because she's afraid that they won't "side with her" on this issue. Does your wife work outside the home AND take care of the kids?

I'd push for counselling. In fact, I'd get on finding a good one if I were you. No excuses. It almost seems as if she's giving you an ultimatum here. "Either we're going to have another baby or we're through". Hmmm yeah, sounds like you need counselling and FAST! Yeah, so let's just say you get her pregnant again....that pregnancy and new baby are not going to "solve" anything. You're just going to have one more child to pay support on when she leaves you. COUNSELLING!

After reading a few more posts, it does appear as if your wife's heart is torn up. She is grieving over the loss of that baby. She'd likely already set her mind on it and made plans. They were ended very abruptly and her emotions are in a turmoil. While you're looking for a counsellor, you might also want to find a doctor for that vasectomy. Obviously, you don't want to go behind her back here, but as a couple, you DO need to let her know that you are FIRM on not having more children and serious enough to see to it that it DOESN'T happen again. What if you do have another accident? Don't leave it up to her (the birth control). If her miscarriage is what's behind her "irrationality", just think what another one would do to her? What if you have a child with birth defects ... how about a Down's syndrome child? The risks increase as you age...she IS in that high risk category now.

Last edited by beachmel; 02-22-2012 at 09:45 AM..
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Old 02-22-2012, 10:18 AM
 
14,780 posts, read 43,465,675 times
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Having been through the should we have more children debate on more than one occasion, the best advice I could give you is that you can't fight emotion with logic. I won't get into my personal details (the situation is rather different, but the emotions are similar), but I would say that the worst thing you can do is attempt to introduce logical concepts, like age, risks, money, space, etc. When emotion is governing the brain, as it is in this case, those are all simply petty issues to be overcome. Issues that may not matter for a year or two or three or ten down the road, all she is thinking and feeling about is today.

We already have four, what's one more? Are you saying I can't take care of the four we have? Are you incapable of taking care of more children? If you are incapable then why am I still with you? Would you not love another child? I don't want to be with a man who won't love his children. Do you think I am a bad mother? Why is this always about what YOU want and never about what I want? Why can't you help me realize my dreams?

The best thing you can do is drop the logical arguments and work on empathy. Focus on how she is feeling, discuss what she wants and why. Ask a lot of questions and give very little advice. She is doing some hardcore soul searching and you are most likely the only person she has as a sounding board. Of course, everytime she starts "sounding" you start countering with your opinion and a list of logical reasons why her emotions are wrong. All that does is make her shut down and feel she needs to defend the way she feels, which of course she can't in logical terms, so she lashes out based on emotion.

Counseling is a good suggestion, but at this point, she may be questioning why. You will say "we need to talk to someone" to which she will most likely reply, "see how it is, we can't even talk to each other". You need to work past this raw emotional time with empathy on your part so she understands you do care and love her and no, cards and flowers don't really show it. You show her that you love her and actually care by trying to understand and validate her feelings. If the topic of "do you want another child ('you' being you)" comes up, don't respond with a firm no. Tell her that it is something you aren't sure of either way, but you are more concerned with how she is feeling and what she's going through.

Eventually you will get through this very raw emotional stage and then you should seek out some counseling and begin to discuss your feelings as well. Again, your feelings, not your logical reasons why it's a bad idea. In general I think when people at that raw emotional stage push people away and make threats, they are not really serious, they are just lashing out. Most likely because you are not acknowledging their feelings, you are just discussing and countering their wants which are based on emotion.
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Old 02-22-2012, 10:29 AM
 
18,837 posts, read 37,198,257 times
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I don't buy all of these "mistakes"...she wanted kids. You are delusional if you think they were all "accidents".

She needs a life beyond babies and kids. Does she work? Can she go to school? What is your religon? Is this a religious issue?

You are right, this issue can lead to divorce, but the truth is look at the money, probably she can't support herself or the kids, and you can't support them all, along with yourself to any decent standard of living...so, you will have to work it out. She needs counseling, and to get a life beyond having babies INMO.
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Old 02-22-2012, 10:36 AM
 
2,779 posts, read 5,476,097 times
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I've had a few miscarriages and each one hit me very differently but one in particular was extremely hard and it was probably a year before I felt like myself again. I second the counseling. Miscarriage is much more difficult for some of us than people think and can affect hormones more than they tell you and she may need help. Good luck.
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