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Old 05-09-2012, 06:45 AM
 
Location: Chapel Hill, N.C.
36,499 posts, read 54,100,559 times
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Interesting study. I think it is terrible that we rank so low in maternal health and high in infant mortality.

Where's the best country to be a mom? - HealthPop - CBS News
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Old 05-09-2012, 12:54 PM
 
14,780 posts, read 43,702,592 times
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FWIW, most of the countries that outrank the United States share a couple of characteristics:

1. The majority of the population is extremely homogenous racially, ethnically and socially.
2. They all have birthrates hovering barely at or below replacement, so the government incentifies births with lavish benefits.
3. They all have universal healthcare systems.

When we break down the US results based on demographics, we will find that the average white woman is very similar to her European counterparts and fairs just as well or better on most measures. When we get into minority women, primarily blacks and hispanics they fair far worse since do to poverty they have less access to healthcare, education, etc. This portion of the population also has far more average births per woman, skewing the overall national statistic.

The US's overall issue is really one of poverty and that is an issue we are not very keen on really addressing.
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Old 05-09-2012, 02:05 PM
 
1,733 posts, read 1,822,925 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NJGOAT View Post
FWIW, most of the countries that outrank the United States share a couple of characteristics:

1. The majority of the population is extremely homogenous racially, ethnically and socially.
2. They all have birthrates hovering barely at or below replacement, so the government incentifies births with lavish benefits.
3. They all have universal healthcare systems.

When we break down the US results based on demographics, we will find that the average white woman is very similar to her European counterparts and fairs just as well or better on most measures. When we get into minority women, primarily blacks and hispanics they fair far worse since do to poverty they have less access to healthcare, education, etc. This portion of the population also has far more average births per woman, skewing the overall national statistic.

The US's overall issue is really one of poverty and that is an issue we are not very keen on really addressing.
Mostly agree, except number 1. That may have been so decades ago, but today, places like Sweden, Germany, Canada, Switzerland, Australia etc range from equally to far more mixed.
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Old 05-09-2012, 03:02 PM
 
Location: Petticoat Junction
934 posts, read 1,939,316 times
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How's the tax situation compare?
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Old 05-09-2012, 05:44 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,386 posts, read 35,551,149 times
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Originally Posted by AJBarney View Post
How's the tax situation compare?
Their tax situation is better than ours but it's not an apples to apples comparison as they are an oil exporter and revenue from oil exports pay for many of their social programs like health care and maternity benefits.

I don't like their maternity benefits. From what I've read, because of them, women get mommy tracked in the work force. Companies just don't want to spend money training employees who are likely to take years off when they have kids.
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Old 05-09-2012, 06:48 PM
 
2,779 posts, read 5,502,033 times
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Well I'm Canadian but live in the states. It's hard to talk about this issue without getting political but let's just say that it is a lot easier to manage the health of 30 million people than it is 300 million people.

While it may look lovely from the outside there are issues inside. I have a friend in Toronto who is an attorney, she is pregnant with her fourth child in six years...she will have worked two out of the last 6.5yrs during which she has been paid the bulk of her salary and all benefits. Her plan is to quit for good once this final leave is up. If you were a business owner how would you feel? As for health perhaps it should be noted that the same friend has had all of her children at home because she doesn't trust the hospitals in Toronto...I have other friends who drive to Buffalo and pay to give birth.

I could go on...
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Old 05-09-2012, 07:04 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,386 posts, read 35,551,149 times
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Originally Posted by hml1976 View Post
Well I'm Canadian but live in the states. It's hard to talk about this issue without getting political but let's just say that it is a lot easier to manage the health of 30 million people than it is 300 million people.

While it may look lovely from the outside there are issues inside. I have a friend in Toronto who is an attorney, she is pregnant with her fourth child in six years...she will have worked two out of the last 6.5yrs during which she has been paid the bulk of her salary and all benefits. Her plan is to quit for good once this final leave is up. If you were a business owner how would you feel? As for health perhaps it should be noted that the same friend has had all of her children at home because she doesn't trust the hospitals in Toronto...I have other friends who drive to Buffalo and pay to give birth.

I could go on...
It looks good from the outside because many people want something for nothing. Your friend who has worked only 2 out of the last 6.5 years is a perfect example of this. People are selfish.

I used to work with a guy whose wife did the same thing and then when she had no benefits left, they moved to the U.S. because the lower taxes here made it feasible for her to stay home. Some people are out to get whatver they can and a system that allows them to take looks mighty good.

You ask a good question with how the employer feels. From what I've read, maternity benefits like those in Canada, Norway and Sweden have resulted in a backlash against women in the work force. One article I read on this ended with the statement, "God help you if you're a childless woman over 30 looking for work". Employers know you'll be off for two years in no time and they don't want to hire them. Given a choice between training or promoting a woman or a man, the man gets the training or promotion because he's not going to take off for two years when he has a baby. Personally, I see systems like this as designed to keep women in their place and I don't like that one bit. I'm baffled that any woman would like a system where men are favored because it's assumed women will just take of when they have babies. I'm glad we don't have this here.
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Old 05-10-2012, 01:33 AM
 
1,733 posts, read 1,822,925 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
Their tax situation is better than ours but it's not an apples to apples comparison as they are an oil exporter and revenue from oil exports pay for many of their social programs like health care and maternity benefits.

I don't like their maternity benefits. From what I've read, because of them, women get mommy tracked in the work force. Companies just don't want to spend money training employees who are likely to take years off when they have kids.
Well as someone who has worked and employed people in Norway...The total taxes for the middle class are roughly comparable to the total taxes in a high-tax state, such as New York. Or 2-3% above.

Norway is one of the worlds bigger oil exporters but all the oil income is earmarked for a savings fund for the day when the oil runs out. Has been for decades. All revenue from oil exports go into the fund, which is now huge. All the social benefits are paid for from the normal economy. Note that the rest of the Nordic countries have comparable social benefits with no oil.

Mommy tracking is illegal, but probably still happens occasionally. It is worth noting that 1-year maternity leave positions are the best way for graduates to get their first job, references and something relevant on their CV. Most people, including those doing the recruiting got onto the job ladder that way. Since the pay during maternity leave is reinbursed by the government, it is more of an inconvenience anyway. Low level positions tend to be easy to train people for, and high-level ones tend to be better at keeping it legal.

There also seems to be...I don't know, because there are public health care, pensions, etc, there seems to be an increased understanding that this needs to be paid for. Which means every new taxpayer is a personal investment for old age. America has historically not has as much of a need for working people to breed. Immigration replaced the working population, and it was cheaper than raising and education people from scratch.
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Old 05-10-2012, 10:54 AM
 
Location: Petticoat Junction
934 posts, read 1,939,316 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hml1976 View Post
Well I'm Canadian but live in the states. It's hard to talk about this issue without getting political but let's just say that it is a lot easier to manage the health of 30 million people than it is 300 million people.
Oh wait, so there's context to statistics? You don't say.


I'd say the global obligations of the US versus Norway are a tad bit different as well.
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Old 05-10-2012, 11:19 AM
 
14,780 posts, read 43,702,592 times
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Originally Posted by AJBarney View Post
I'd say the global obligations of the US versus Norway are a tad bit different as well.
In all reality, this is the primary reason; not oil revenues, population or anything else. My earlier statement on population differences was mainly to highlight that the issue in the US is really one of poverty and access, not quality of care or availability of benefits. Any NATO or US leaning/allied country has the immense benefit of only needing a token military force. The US by contrast spends upwards of $700 billion a year directly on the military and total defense spending (everything defense related like Homeland Security, spy agencies, etc.) pushes that number to between $1.2 and $1.4 trillion. That amount alone eats up more then half of the Federal governments annual revenues and makes up 33%+ of the last budget and is a greater expense then all social programs combined.

Think about it, Canada could have no military, zero, none and still be just as secure as it is today simply because it sits next to the US. Same thing with western European countries they simply do not need much of a military because if something did happen, their ally the US would be there to defend them. When a society is completely relieved of the burden of defending itself, they can spend a lot of money and time taking care of their people.

This topic is going to be a major one over the next decade or two for the US. Do we continue to spend so much that we can take on the rest of the worlds militaries combined and still win and have the ability to project power wherever we choose, or should we scale back and put that money to other uses?
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