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Old 05-20-2012, 12:32 PM
 
17,183 posts, read 22,900,822 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
I think that's a bit of a myth. I live near the border and the bilingual kids do not do nearly as well on standardized tests as the English-only speakers -- independent of ethnicity or race. The middle school and high school drop out rate is much much higher with the bilingual kids than the English speaking kids.

I really don't see any evidence that learning the two languages is all that beneficial. There is some evidence that learning one language very well first and then learning another language later is beneficial to the brain.
In most countries in Europe people learn more than one language early and it certainly has no detrimental consequences.

The problem with your experience of bilingualism is that near the border, you are getting children who often are not getting a good grounding in Spanish depending upon the education level of their parents.

Bilingual pupils do better in exams, report finds - Education News - Education - The Independent

Quote:
Bilingual children are far more likely to get top-grade passes in exams in all subjects, a report has found.

A study of Portuguese children at secondary schools in London showed that those who were encouraged to continue studying their native language were five times as likely to achieve five top grade A* to C grade passes at GCSE.

The study also found that 11-year-olds in Hackney who speak more than one language at home were outperforming pupils who only speak English, even in reading, in their national curriculum tests.
http://ezinearticles.com/?Myths-Abou...ren&id=2254856

Quote:
Myth #7: Bilingual children do worse in school.

Browsing through the research studies that have been done on the topic you will find that they either conclude that bilingual children do just as well as monolinguals or in fact, they show that bilinguals are doing better in school. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise unless they have data to prove it.
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Old 05-21-2012, 07:32 AM
 
47,525 posts, read 69,677,756 times
Reputation: 22474
Quote:
Originally Posted by nana053 View Post
In most countries in Europe people learn more than one language early and it certainly has no detrimental consequences.

The problem with your experience of bilingualism is that near the border, you are getting children who often are not getting a good grounding in Spanish depending upon the education level of their parents.

Bilingual pupils do better in exams, report finds - Education News - Education - The Independent



http://ezinearticles.com/?Myths-Abou...ren&id=2254856
Here's one that isn't on the border:

AISD Addresses Low TAKS Scores in ESL

Among all grades tested, only 49 percent of ESL students met the academic standard on the math portion of the TAKS.

And another:

http://www.houstonisd.org/ResearchAc...l%20081611.pdf

The bilingual kids are not performing as well.

It's okay to introduce a child to another language, or to music, or to art, or to math or science. I did put one of my kids in a bilingual program and I wouldn't do it again. He missed too much math and other important subject matter. And I don't think it raised his IQ at all, he's smart but he didn't get much out of those 6 years. He can't speak Spanish after 6 years of school immersion and didn't do as well in high school as he should have. The other parents say the same thing.
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Old 05-21-2012, 01:24 PM
 
Location: The Hall of Justice
25,901 posts, read 42,686,307 times
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Our Dual Language program does have good results.

Dual Language - Naperville Community Unit School District 203

Quote:
Research studies have demonstrated the effectiveness of Two-Way Dual Language Programs in educating both dominant English students and English Language Learners and developing biliterate, academic, and cross-cultural competency for the global market (Lindholm-Leary, 2001; Thomas and Collier, 2002). Thomas and Collier found that English Language Learners who participated in Dual Language education outperformed comparable monolingual schooled students in academic achievement after four to seven years in the program (Soltero, 2004).
Our district's program is relatively new, but it is modeled after an established program in Schaumburg, IL, which recently began an English-Mandarin program in addition to English-Spanish.

School District 54 » Dual Language Program Information

Quote:
Q Will my child fall behind in basic skills, such as reading, writing and math, because of the
second language?
A No, national studies have shown that children in dual language programs, as a group, perform
as well or better than their respective peers in achievement tests in math, reading and writing.
Assessment results of dual language students in School District 54 show the same outcome.
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Old 05-21-2012, 08:32 PM
 
47,525 posts, read 69,677,756 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JustJulia View Post
Our Dual Language program does have good results.

Dual Language - Naperville Community Unit School District 203



Our district's program is relatively new, but it is modeled after an established program in Schaumburg, IL, which recently began an English-Mandarin program in addition to English-Spanish.

School District 54 » Dual Language Program Information
Well -- I would just check out the actual program and with others that used it. The one here was not good. For six years it was nothing more than a half day of classwork and then goofing off and not learning the other language, none of the kids that went through it did well.

It's just like anything, it can be done well, it can be done poorly and if it's done poorly it's not going to add 40 IQ points to the child or whatever they claim it does. Two languages does not help most of the kids where I live.

My theory is that the kinds of parents who look for ways to enhance their kid's intellect are what's really behind the success in many of these programs -- whether it be violin, extra math, trips to the museum.
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Old 05-21-2012, 08:42 PM
 
Location: Liberal Coast
4,280 posts, read 6,083,198 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
Here's one that isn't on the border:

AISD Addresses Low TAKS Scores in ESL

Among all grades tested, only 49 percent of ESL students met the academic standard on the math portion of the TAKS.

And another:

http://www.houstonisd.org/ResearchAc...l%20081611.pdf

The bilingual kids are not performing as well.

It's okay to introduce a child to another language, or to music, or to art, or to math or science. I did put one of my kids in a bilingual program and I wouldn't do it again. He missed too much math and other important subject matter. And I don't think it raised his IQ at all, he's smart but he didn't get much out of those 6 years. He can't speak Spanish after 6 years of school immersion and didn't do as well in high school as he should have. The other parents say the same thing.
ESL is completely different than a bilingual program at school for kids who already speak English. Just sayin'.
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Old 05-21-2012, 09:03 PM
 
32,516 posts, read 37,161,565 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psr13 View Post
ESL is completely different than a bilingual program at school for kids who already speak English. Just sayin'.
This.

And a young child learning Spanish by immersion in a non-classroom setting is also different.
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Old 05-21-2012, 09:12 PM
 
17,183 posts, read 22,900,822 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psr13 View Post
ESL is completely different than a bilingual program at school for kids who already speak English. Just sayin'.
Absolutely. Also, imo, Texas has problems in terms of all children in school, not just ESL or bilingual. Programs that could be done well are often not done well in Texas.
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Old 05-21-2012, 09:15 PM
 
Location: Liberal Coast
4,280 posts, read 6,083,198 times
Reputation: 3924
I could show the opposite of malamute anyway. Look that the district I went to for school. The highest scoring high school in the district also has a huge majority of bilingual students. Being bilingual hasn't hurt them any. It also isn't why they score so high, though.
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Old 05-21-2012, 09:16 PM
 
17,183 posts, read 22,900,822 times
Reputation: 17478
Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
Here's one that isn't on the border:

AISD Addresses Low TAKS Scores in ESL

Among all grades tested, only 49 percent of ESL students met the academic standard on the math portion of the TAKS.

And another:

http://www.houstonisd.org/ResearchAc...l%20081611.pdf

The bilingual kids are not performing as well.

It's okay to introduce a child to another language, or to music, or to art, or to math or science. I did put one of my kids in a bilingual program and I wouldn't do it again. He missed too much math and other important subject matter. And I don't think it raised his IQ at all, he's smart but he didn't get much out of those 6 years. He can't speak Spanish after 6 years of school immersion and didn't do as well in high school as he should have. The other parents say the same thing.
Considering that I live near Alvin ISD, I can believe that the ESL kids are not doing well there. That's a lot different though than actual bilingual kids especially in cases where the parents speak both languages.

The other factor in Alvin and Houston *is* poverty and uneducated parents.

In the Chicago area, my daughter's girl scout troop tutored in a *bilingual* program where many kids came from homes where the parents did not speak English. The problem was that they also did not read Spanish and could not help their kids with school work even in their own language. I am sure the kids did not do well on testing though we didn't have the emphasis on standardized testing at the time.
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Old 05-22-2012, 06:59 AM
 
Location: The Hall of Justice
25,901 posts, read 42,686,307 times
Reputation: 42769
Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
Well -- I would just check out the actual program and with others that used it. The one here was not good. For six years it was nothing more than a half day of classwork and then goofing off and not learning the other language, none of the kids that went through it did well.

It's just like anything, it can be done well, it can be done poorly and if it's done poorly it's not going to add 40 IQ points to the child or whatever they claim it does. Two languages does not help most of the kids where I live.

My theory is that the kinds of parents who look for ways to enhance their kid's intellect are what's really behind the success in many of these programs -- whether it be violin, extra math, trips to the museum.
Oh, I definitely agree! I apologize if I sounded like I was saying that all programs were successful. I just wanted to say that they can be a great thing for kids, but you are absolutely right--a lot depends on the program, the teachers, and the student himself. My son is in a dual language program now but we are pulling him after this term is over. Although I believe very much in the program, it is not a good fit for him.
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