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If they are making that judgement, then they are not obeying. They are using enlightened sef interest to do the best thing.
I take this back. I looked up the word obey. One can obey ones own conscience so presumably one can obey their own judgement. Not the word I would chose. But it works.
somebodynew, I've got bigger frish to fie. I'll just say you're right... for now *glares at you*
Quote:
Originally Posted by snofarmer
Your graph only shows a short period of time and it stops at 2009.
While you ignore the upward trend .
So this small downward blip is the result of not spanking, I need to pause while I laugh.
Lets look at the BIG picture, while you do see a drop the rate is still much much higher than it was it the 60's and 70's as those folks knew discipline.
Lets take a look at this chart, notice the low crime rates in the 60's and 70's.
Then notice the upward trend as the anti spanking trend gained approval.
A small blip down is still higher than it was.
You're not fond of analyzing data, are you? I don't think you can support the argument that the upward trend in crime occurred "as the anti-spanking trend gained approval" (i.e., that opposition to spanking began around 1960). What alternatives were they using if any considerable fraction of parents of that time stopped spanking? Time-outs? Because the man credited for the time-out and the discovery of its value began his work around 1958.
Quote:
The concept of time-out was invented, named, and used by Arthur Staats in his extended work with his daughter (and later son), and was part of a long-term program of behavioral analysis beginning in 1958 that treated various aspects of child development.
Seems like a bit of a stretch to say that oh so many parents started doing this and abandoned - not just abandoned, but began opposing - physical discipline in 1960.
Now, it is your argument that children not being spanked has something to do with the rise in crime between 1960 and today, so the burden of proof still rests on you. But I did find a few things that seem to contradict that logic. If spanking was frowned upon by a considerable fraction of Americans as early as 1960, wouldn't you think there would be promotion of an alternative right about then as well? But there doesn't seem to have been.
Quote:
...behavior modification has been a credible model in parenting education since the early 1970s.
Now I'll grant you that this is hardly official statistics. So if you have something better that would suggest the "anti-spanking trend" truly began earlier than this, by all means post it. For the sake of a greater point, however, let's go with 1970 for now. That's 23 years between the approximate time alternative methods may have become more popular than spanking and the sudden decrease in crime that has lasted about ten years (And even this is a generous estimate, because I don't recall much protest going on when I was a kid in the 80s, but anyway!)
Take 18 years of that 23 to actually raise a child using other methods of discipline. Then you will be looking at the true results of the time-out and other methods. Just 5 years before crime started going down. I chalk those 5 years up to perfecting the art. The anti-spanking "trend" seems to be working just fine for modern generations (because it is a different world now, different methods may be best). Coupled with the evidence suggesting that spanking can increase aggression and slow mental development, I for one am convinced that physical "discipline" is at very best not needed and at very worst not right.
If it is okay to hit a defenseless child then, presumably, it is okay to hit an adult who may or may not be able to defend themselves.
Oh ... wait a minute ..... that would be assault.
Like in the 1950's when it was probably the norm when a husband spanked/hit his wife for merely stating her own opposing opinions or verbally challenging him. If a jerk try that on me, he would find himself picking up his teeth way before the police came.
Like in the 1950's when it was probably the norm when a husband spanked/hit his wife for merely stating her own opposing opinions or verbally challenging him. If a jerk try that on me, he would find himself picking up his teeth way before the police came.
Belting your wife for speaking her mind was not the norm in the 50's. Maybe on sitcoms but in real life? No.
Proverbs 13:24 He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes (diligently)."
(Proverbs 19:18)
Chasten thy son while there is hope, and let not thy soul spare for his crying.
Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him. (Proverbs 22:15)
Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die. (Proverbs 23:13)
15 The rod and reproof give wisdom: but a child left to himself bringeth his mother to shame. 17 Correct thy son, and he shall give thee rest; yea, he shall give delight unto thy soul. (Proverbs 29:15, 17)
from the good book a guide to civilization.
The problem with this is that an interpretation that this means you should spank *may* be entirely incorrect
When you hear the word from this passage of "rod," what do you think of? Perhaps a stick for beating and brutalizing, right? But what happens - what happens when we understand the rod in this Proverb as the same kind of rod and staff that comfort in Psalm 23? "Thy rod and thy staff they comfort me." The rod and staff are the shepherd's tools for comforting the sheep. It is for caring and protecting, never for beating them to death. A good shepherd delights in his flock. The shepherd will go to whatever lengths necessary to provide the finest grazing, the rich pastures and clean water. The shepherd will do
whatever is necessary to provide shelter from the storms and protection from enemies and diseases that sheep are susceptible to.
Jesus said, "I am the Good Shepherd. The Good Shepherd gives his life for his sheep." This Good Shepherd's rod and staff comfort the sheep. The rod is thrown out on a path to startle the sheep warning them that
they are in danger of wandering into an unsafe place. The shepherd uses the rod to drive off coyotes and wolves. Being stubborn creatures, sheep often get themselves into ridiculous dilemmas, like our children.
Children are in need of shepherding like sheep so that they don't stray off into paths that will hurt them or destroy them.
The Proverb says that whoever does not use a rod hates his child. In this context, the word "hates" means that the parent does not value their child and does not protect them. A shepherd who hates his sheep
will allow them to wander off in any and every direction on their own with no thought for their safety or for their well being. The shepherd may have freedom, but the shepherd will have no love. What of the shepherd who even goes off to find the lost sheep? A parent who hates their child will not offer the basic cares of a good shepherd like guiding and guarding and nurturing or disciplining.
Childhood, as you know, is a dangerous time. Parents who love their child guide their sons and daughters, giving them a safe place to live and to grow in trust, and granting them well being because they know that they are cared for. To love a child is to set limits. Anything-goes parenting is as damaging to our children's spirit as the opposite extreme of anything doesn't-go parenting.
13 Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.
14 Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.
Yeah, some pretty stupid advice got thrown in there somehow. Whoops!
Of course, there is something in the bible that seems to contradict that (surprise, surprise).
Ephesians 6:4
Quote:
4 Fathers, do not provoke your children to anger, but bring them up in the discipline and instruction of the Lord.
Last edited by Vic 2.0; 08-29-2012 at 08:13 PM..
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JK.
