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Old 09-23-2012, 09:59 AM
 
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glass_of_merlot your son does need discipline and punishment when he does wrong. He needs to learn limits and consequences. One quick swat is not abuse. Shame on all of you who suggest otherwise. We have strayed too far as a society without discipline. It does not need to be abuse.

If you can do the rest of the time out without a quick swat try it. He needs to learn what is right and what is wrong. And yes he does need to have an outlet for his energy. Please do not give up on this.
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Old 09-23-2012, 10:08 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kayekaye View Post
A quick one swat is not spanking or abuse.

It is a necessary tool. I totally don't understand the logic that was used to dispel the discipline of a swat. If you can't control yourself from a swat turning into abuse then that's your choice. I, however can and do. Life is hard and children need to deal with reality to succeed.
You see, home is where children should be unconditionally accepted and protected. While I agree that one quick swat is unlikely to be abuse, it is not a good method for teaching children not to hit. Teaching children not to hit needs to be proactive, showing the child other ways to deal with his or her feelings and with his or her peers. I disagree that it is a *necessary* tool.

Children imitate what they see around them and if you spank, you are teaching them that hitting is *ok* as long as the person doing the hitting is an adult (and in particular, a parent). This is not a good lesson. It does lead to continuing the *tradition* of spanking when the child becomes a parent though. Also, even the research that is in favor of spanking, generally says that spanking should not start until a child is around 2 and should stop when a child is around 6 or 7.

Another point is that spanking may stop behavior in the immediate timeframe, but it does not teach the child what s/he did wrong and it does not actually stop the behavior in the long term most of the time. Kids react in different ways to spankings. For some, they *will* stop because they are scared of more spankings. However, most of us don't want our children to be scared of us. For others, they will simply hide their misbehaviors and continue these when parents are not looking. I had a friend whose son loved to get into the dog's food dish. She spanked him for it and he stopped for a while, but then would go back to it when she was not looking. She discovered this after some time and decided that spanking was NOT working. Other children will decide to rebel over many things and not be affected by spankings at all.

So, while I think that for some parents a swat on the butt over one particular behavior will have some effect, especially if you do not do it often or for many different offenses, I don't believe it is very productive.

Since there are many better ways to discipline that involve teaching and that result in self-controlled, self-disciplined children who become self-controlled and self-disciplined adults, why spank?
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Old 09-23-2012, 10:31 AM
 
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Well I totally disagree with you. If a child doesn't learn real consequences he will never succeed. Where is it stated that children from home with one swat dont' turn out well? You are assuming that one swat will turn into abuse and it does not. You are framing the discussion to your ends and I do not share in your erroneous conclusions. You conclusions are based on anecdotal incidences. There are no unbiased studies to support the claims of no corporal punishment produces better children. And society in general seems to be suffering from it.

No I refute your claim that children who get swatted once feel fear from parents and are not safe at home. You are wrong.
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Old 09-23-2012, 10:55 AM
 
47,525 posts, read 69,692,979 times
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Originally Posted by Kayekaye View Post
Well I totally disagree with you. If a child doesn't learn real consequences he will never succeed. Where is it stated that children from home with one swat dont' turn out well? You are assuming that one swat will turn into abuse and it does not. You are framing the discussion to your ends and I do not share in your erroneous conclusions. You conclusions are based on anecdotal incidences. There are no unbiased studies to support the claims of no corporal punishment produces better children. And society in general seems to be suffering from it.

No I refute your claim that children who get swatted once feel fear from parents and are not safe at home. You are wrong.
I'm all for a good quick swat but only for certain misdeeds.

For example if you are socializing a 3 year old with a pet and the 3 year old deliberately yanks hard on the dog's or cat's tail, I think a qood quick swat is in order but also a lecture on how bad he made the dog or cat feel, or if playing with another child in a sand box, and one throws sand into the other's face or bites the other child.

It should be immediate so that the punishment is directly linked with the bad behavior.

A child having trouble fitting in at school when he's changed school 3 times and is only 6 is not where I think spanking is appropriate. In part because the attention span is too short. It's better to find out what is going on -- is the child initiating the problems or reacting to problems.

And also 6 year old boys aren't like 6 year old girls in most cases. They do things for different reasons.

When one of my sons was in 2nd grade, daily he would come home complaining about another kid and told me he was going to have to fight him. I asked why and he said always this other kid would slug him. If he passed by him or was just standing in line and the other kid passed by, that kid would pick him out to slug him. He said he was trying to ignore him but it was every single day that this kid would slug him.

After a few months of this, my kid is asking if this enemy kid could come over and play. I asked him why he wanted that kid that always was slugging him to come over and he said that now they're friends and the other kid was slugging him because he wanted to make friends with him.
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Old 09-23-2012, 11:39 AM
 
17,183 posts, read 22,913,302 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kayekaye View Post
Well I totally disagree with you. If a child doesn't learn real consequences he will never succeed. Where is it stated that children from home with one swat dont' turn out well? You are assuming that one swat will turn into abuse and it does not. You are framing the discussion to your ends and I do not share in your erroneous conclusions. You conclusions are based on anecdotal incidences. There are no unbiased studies to support the claims of no corporal punishment produces better children. And society in general seems to be suffering from it.

No I refute your claim that children who get swatted once feel fear from parents and are not safe at home. You are wrong.
Children learn real consequences pretty easily if you use natural consequences. You do NOT have to swat a child in order for that child to learn that behaviors have consequences.

No one said a child from a home with one swat won't turn out ok. What I have said is that a swat is unnecessary. It is true that children need discipline. It is also true that some parents have no idea how to discipline especially without corporal punishment. However, it is also true that kids can be disciplined without corporal punishment as parents learn how to do this.

You will note that in Sweden where spanking was banned, at first, children seemed to be undisciplined. This was true until parents learned the new techniques and began to incorporate them. I think that Swedish children today are quite well-disciplined and independent.

The research on positive discipline found that (from a pdf that I don't have a url for)

Quote:
The research clearly shows that young people do better when they perceive both firmness and kindness from their parents. Children who rate their parents as authoritative (both responsive and demanding) engage significantly less in socially risky behaviors. (Aquilino, 2001; Baumrind, 1991; Jackson et al., 1998; Radziszewska et al 1996; Simons-Morton et al, 2001) Other studies have correlated the teen’s perception of parenting that is both kind and firm with improved academic performance. (Cohen, 1997; Deslandes, 1997; Dornbusch et al., 1987; Lam, 1997) A young person’s sense of community (connection or “belongingnessâ€) at home and at school also increases academic success anddecreases socially risky behavior. (Resnick et al., 1997; Battistich, 1999; Goodenow, 1993) Interventions at school and at home can decrease the “socially risky†behaviors and increase a young person’s likelihood of succeeding at school and in their social environment. (Battistich, 1999; Nelsen, 1979.) Interventions that teach skills for social belonging in elementary school have lasting positive effects. (Kellam et al. 1998, Battistich, 1999
One of my baby center friends on our positive parenting board wrote about how she uses positive discipline with a toddler. Now, you have to adapt this to your own child and not all of it will work for everyone, but it is a good guide for toddlers. One of the most important things you can do at all ages is to model the behavior you want to see. Do as I say, not as I do has never worked well as a discipline technique.

Offer food every 2 hrs. A hungry child is never a well-behaved child.

Make sure she gets enough rest and quiet time throughout the day and at night.

Keep rules simple and age appropriate.

Repeat the rules and tell her what is expected often.

Always give warning before a change and keep your child up on what is going on in their day.

Have a routine for the day and the week.

Recognize that when s/he is not behaving that there is some imbalance to how she is feeling. Evaluate whether the cause. Is s/he hungry, thirsty, tired, over stimulated, uncomfortable, or needing attention and one on one time with me?

Role-play by having dolls, animals or little people 'misbehave' and s/he corrects them. This actually has helped reinforce rules like not climbing on the coffee table.

Stay calm. Acting like a two yr old yourself will not help anyone!

Read parenting advice, books, and articles almost daily to refresh my mind on my goals.

Put thought into how I want to handle a situation and follow through. If it doesn't work or things get worse, reevaluate and change the response.

Recognize that I cannot control my child. I can only control my response to my child and that response is what guides her. Anytime you have a goal of controlling some one they will resist. It is human nature.

Do control environment. I control if we are at the library or we go home. I control if she plays in her room or in the living room, etc. I control environment but I have no delusions of controlling my child.

Listen to her and I talk to her a lot. Communication starts now. Don't wait until the child understands. Talk now! They understand more than you think.

Be consistent to a fault. And keep daddy up to date on what she is doing and how I am handling it. I don't ask or insist that he do as I do but by keeping him informed he usually either does the same or offers
suggestions to me. This keeps us on the same pg so that we do have a united front.

Take care of myself. I take a few minutes if I need them and that’s that. I tell ****** I'm relaxing and if she pesters me during this time she is sent to play in her room. She can sit with me or look at a book, etc but she has to let me alone a minute. I make sure she is taken care of and I keep it short. But 5 min of doing nothing can really increase my patience in the long run.

Plan activities and appts for her good time of the day. And I let her know what will happen, what I expect her to do, etc.

I am very loving to her and hold her as much as she wants. I don’t always play when she wants but I will hold her while I do my chores anytime. I attend to all cries of help, any crying day or night, etc. If she
feels she needs I assume she knows more than I do and do what I can to make her feel 'taken care of'.

If I'm doing something and she wants something I tell her when I will do it and I always find her and do this, even if she has forgotten. I go remind of what I said and tell her I'm ready. This way she has learned to wait. If you let it go when they forget they learn that they need to get their needs met right then or they wont be met.

And of course, mold the home environment to suit the child’s need and encourage good behavior. Don't have your home full of don't touch items. It’s just asking for trouble.

Keep your home stress free.

Limit tv and all media exposure.

Have a quiet home. Its more peaceful.
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Old 09-23-2012, 01:59 PM
 
13,422 posts, read 9,950,386 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kayekaye View Post
glass_of_merlot your son does need discipline and punishment when he does wrong. He needs to learn limits and consequences. One quick swat is not abuse. Shame on all of you who suggest otherwise. We have strayed too far as a society without discipline. It does not need to be abuse.

If you can do the rest of the time out without a quick swat try it. He needs to learn what is right and what is wrong. And yes he does need to have an outlet for his energy. Please do not give up on this.
So, hitting is only wrong if he does it? You give him a swat and at the same time say "We don't hit, hitting is wrong?".

Why is it okay for you to do it, if it's so wrong?

How is it you're unable to get you're point across without a swat, but you expect the child to?

It makes about as much sense to me as sitting down a child that curses and saying "We don't ****ing swear in this house, okay?".
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Old 09-23-2012, 02:55 PM
 
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I think it is great for kids to play soccer, but I don't know if that is necessarily the best activity for kids who are having trouble controlling their behavior. I have two kids who play soccer, including a 6-year-old. It seems like each season my kids run into a player or two who is overly aggressive and hits or pushes or does other physical things that break the rules and cause problems. These kids create headaches for everyone.

If you want him to play soccer, you will have to make it very clear that there is a lot of potential for physical contact. He has to understand the difference between unintentional contact--say when two kids are trying to get the ball at the same time and they bang into each other--and intentional contact. Intentional pushing, hitting, tripping etc. will cause all kinds of grief. Just this past weekend, we had an entire soccer game get disrupted because of one 6-year-old boy who could not control his behavior. He angered the coaches, parents and players, and frankly his behavior was totally out of step with the other kids.

This may be because overall I have to say most kids I have seen don't hit much to get their way once they reach first grade. That seems more common in toddlers and some young preschoolers. If your son is doing this, then I agree you need help from the teacher. I also am wondering if he has a history of hitting someone else in the family when he gets mad (or if he always just gets his way at home so that the parents don't have to deal with him being upset?). I would be surprised if he hits other kids but he doesn't display the same behavior in other settings. That would make me wonder if the other kids are being mean to him or something.
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Old 09-23-2012, 04:59 PM
 
Location: The Other California
4,254 posts, read 5,606,050 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ellar View Post
I also am wondering if he has a history of hitting someone else in the family when he gets mad (or if he always just gets his way at home so that the parents don't have to deal with him being upset?). I would be surprised if he hits other kids but he doesn't display the same behavior in other settings. That would make me wonder if the other kids are being mean to him or something.
Great point here.
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Old 09-24-2012, 02:24 PM
 
4,738 posts, read 4,434,173 times
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Originally Posted by WesternPilgrim View Post
Also, if he has a lot of rock music in his life (or similar genres like hip hop), that can make for a volatile and impulsive personality in some children.
.
I've also read that dancing, or reading Novels can have the same impact.

If it isn't dancing, reading novels, or rock music. Try meth. Probably just as likely that Meth is driving him to anger



As far as my limited advice, based on my horrible school experiences growing up: More.

Not just school. . .more kids. More interaction. practice makes perfect. More events. More soccer. More play dates. More kids for dinner. more meet-ups. More more more. especially if you can observe your son.
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Old 09-24-2012, 02:35 PM
 
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I would try taking him places where there are other kids - train tables at bookstores, playgrounds, climbing areas at fast food places - and watch and gently address his actions while you are there. If there is another child in your neighborhood that you can invite over, that would help a lot.

I'd be careful making him feel like a bad boy at school. What he needs to feel like is a big boy at school. Easier said than done, I know. But just give him some opportunities to be around other kids and be consistent with your expectations.
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