Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Fair point, although it doesn't explain why you distinguish spanking from abuse, since you allege that both are provably harmful.
Difference between evidence and proof. IMO, abuse is something with a very direct impact on the well-being of a child, whereas the evident effect of spanking is less clearly understood.
Quote:
Originally Posted by djacques
For myself, I don't rely on the prospect of long-term or permanent harm to say that, for instance, using tasers on children is unacceptable; I merely apply the Golden Rule, and tasers fail the test. Likewise with reasonable spanking; I apply the Golden Rule, and it passes the test.
The Golden Rule? Yeah, well I guess one would rather get a spanking than a ticket or jail time for committing any given crime; so yeah, you got a pretty solid argument there
Quote:
Originally Posted by djacques
No, it was merely an observation that a person engaged in raising a child, however unsophisticated he or she may be, can be relied on to know whether their child is behaving or not.
Again, any sort of child abuser could offer the same justification for anything and everything. Anyone can claim "Nope, this is the only method that works with my child". This is precisely why parents' methods of "discipline" are to be called into question in the first place. For the sake of protecting children, we cannot just accept "Well it's the only thing that works" despite evidence that it's more likely to cause harm and a lack of evidence that it really does any good whatsoever.
Again, any sort of child abuser could offer the same justification for anything and everything. Anyone can claim "Nope, this is the only method that works with my child". This is precisely why parents' methods of "discipline" are to be called into question in the first place. For the sake of protecting children, we cannot just accept "Well it's the only thing that works" despite evidence that it's more likely to cause harm and a lack of evidence that it really does any good whatsoever.
The conclusive evidence that it does at least some good is its ubiquity. Having to spank a child is quite a nuisance, it really is; there are tons of things an average parent would rather spend their time doing. If they do it nevertheless, it is because they see a benefit in it that could not otherwise be achieved. And I don't believe that even the most unsophisticated of parents can be deluded into thinking spanking is working if it isn't.
That only leaves the question of whether there is any harm in the practice, and if so, whether the harm outweighs the good. Statistical correlations are not proof of causality and they aren't reliable evidence. This just isn't the sort of debate that lends itself to scientific proof; there are too many variables in the ways families interact. That leaves us with the Golden Rule.
The conclusive evidence that it does at least some good is its ubiquity. Having to spank a child is quite a nuisance, it really is; there are tons of things an average parent would rather spend their time doing. If they do it nevertheless, it is because they see a benefit in it that could not otherwise be achieved. And I don't believe that even the most unsophisticated of parents can be deluded into thinking spanking is working if it isn't.
But again, many things could "work" in terms of getting the kid to mind or pay attention, letting it be known who's in charge, getting them to stop doing certain things and start doing others. A whop to the leg with a baseball bat could be quite effective! But then, there are reasons to believe certain approaches could be causing harm either instead of or in addition to whatever benefits there may be - reasons that are going ignored by parents who spank. Why? Because they claim it's necessary for their child, with nothing but repetition of their own word to back them up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by djacques
That only leaves the question of whether there is any harm in the practice, and if so, whether the harm outweighs the good. Statistical correlations are not proof of causality and they aren't reliable evidence. This just isn't the sort of debate that lends itself to scientific proof; there are too many variables in the ways families interact.
When you control for other variables, then of course a scientific approach is fitting. Some studies actually do indicate causality.
"
A recent study of low-income European-American, African-American, and Mexican-American toddlers found that kids who were spanked at age 1 were more likely to have aggressive behavior problems at age 3. They also scored lower on the Bayley test of mental development (Berlin et al 2009).
Were these kids getting spanked because they were more aggressive or slow to begin with? It doesn’t seem so. Neither aggressive behavior problems nor lower developmental scores predicted increases in spanking over time.
"
Also note the following:
"Other factors might explain the link. Perhaps toddlers who get spanked are more likely to be psychologically maltreated, physically abused, or neglected. Maybe they are more likely to witness domestic violence. Or maybe their mothers are more likely to be depressed or stressed out.
These factors do indeed seem to cause behavior problems in children. But when Catherine Taylor and her colleagues controlled for these factors, she found that spanking was still linked with a pattern of increased aggression (Taylor et al 2010).
Other prospective studies have reported similar results (Grogan-Kaylor 2005; Mulvaney and Mebert 2007; Lansford et al 2009). The more often kids get spanked, the more likely they are to become more antisocial over time."
Admittedly not every factor one could think of has been controlled for. Regardless, this is ample evidence to suggest causality, if not regarding the effects of spanking then the effects of some other factor more common in parenting styles that include spanking than those that don't.
Why do you keep bringing this up as if it takes us somewhere beyond subjective values? Some people would personally prefer to get away with everything they do wrong. For them, the Golden Rule means let their kids do the same.
Spanking will not and has never stopped the problem long term.
When you spank a child, your inflicting pain on that child, the child will stop the behavior out of fear of getting hit. There are some parents who would say something crazy on the lines of "stop crying or I'll give you something to cry about"
That whole quote is beyond barbaric and to me shows that the parent loves to exert authority over their child. Who wouldn't cry after getting hit hard enough?
There are also these pro-spankers who like to say their is a difference between spanking and hitting.
I won't even go there because if you can't see that their is no difference then perhaps you should go back to Grade 1.
There are also some parents who believe that children must be spanked.
Again, another ignorant post.
There are parents who say " I know what my child needs"
Yes, true you do, but again, it's not solving the problem.
I always thought that taking away freedom from a child,kills them.
The whole spanking issue is about people who are minding other people's business.
If a parent believes their own child should get a few swats on the butt, they have the right to do what they believe is right.
People who are so offended by this should very simply mind their own business.
If a person feels sending a child to a room filled with toys will teach that child not to scratch her brother in the face then by all means do that but if my daughter does it, she will get her butt spanked after her warning. That warning will be this, "If you ever scratch your brother like that again, you will get a spanking" if she does it, she chose it. The question of WHY she did it will be discussed but she will not be allowed to do it twice.
The whole spanking issue is about people who are minding other people's business.
If a parent believes their own child should get a few swats on the butt, they have the right to do what they believe is right.
A. How another person's child ends up is my business, if not from the perspective of pure moral decency (Would you say the same for someone who punches their kid in the face?) then simply because your child may someday interact with mine and/or otherwise affect the world in which my child will live.
B. Someone believing what they're doing is right in no way automatically grants them the right to do it (Read: Holy wars)
Quote:
Originally Posted by mag32gie
If a person feels sending a child to a room filled with toys will teach that child not to scratch her brother in the face then by all means do that but if my daughter does it, she will get her butt spanked after her warning. That warning will be this, "If you ever scratch your brother like that again, you will get a spanking" if she does it, she chose it. The question of WHY she did it will be discussed but she will not be allowed to do it twice.
Yes, but what if the reason she did it was because it works (to get her point across, modify his behavior)? Wouldn't you be quite the hypocrite telling her that reason isn't good enough?
I certainly wouldn't advise someone to send their child to a room filled with toys in response to a problem like this. But timeout with NO toys and/or taking toys away? Absolutely, coupled with efforts to have them internalize values such as empathy and taking pride in one's own self-control (neither of which are consistent with physical discipline).
The whole spanking issue is about people who are minding other people's business.
If a parent believes their own child should get a few swats on the butt, they have the right to do what they believe is right.
People who are so offended by this should very simply mind their own business.
If a person feels sending a child to a room filled with toys will teach that child not to scratch her brother in the face then by all means do that but if my daughter does it, she will get her butt spanked after her warning. That warning will be this, "If you ever scratch your brother like that again, you will get a spanking" if she does it, she chose it. The question of WHY she did it will be discussed but she will not be allowed to do it twice.
Oh I disagree indeed. If you see a parent verbally and physically abusive to a child cursing at them and slapping them in the head, wouldn't you be concerned?
I have no problem with a parent giving a child a few swats to the butt. Do I agree with it? Nope, but do I have a problem with others doing it? No.
I can't say the same if I saw the parent using a belt.
I have no problem with a parent giving a child a few swats to the butt. Do I agree with it? Nope, but do I have a problem with others doing it? No.
I can't say the same if I saw the parent using a belt.
It's interesting to see how the location of the line varies, by time and place. When I was growing up (still in a small town in Texas), belts and paddles were considered 100% fine, and I think they mostly still are. Some parents even used switches off of trees and telephone cords. I happen to think today that any sort of hitting is crossing the line, save a quick slap on the hand to associate a behavior with danger for kids who are too young to understand your words. It's really not about what is used, in my book; it's the experience of the action itself that does the most lasting harm, not necessarily the level of physical pain.
Complying out of fear is much better than not complying at all for however long it may take for them to absorb the long-range reasons. (Some people never do understand, in a philosophical way, why they should obey any rules.)
I sure as shooting don't. Whose judgement is superior to mine? Whose brain more capable to decide right from wrong? Who is to determine these rules? Who, not me? No one. And so it should be for my very smart and capable children. Since they are smart and capable, at each stage of development that they can conceive of safety, character, integrity, problem solving, they do. And in meantime, no amount of hurting them will get them any closer. If anything, it will cloud the lessons.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
