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The pope is infallible in all matters of morality and speaks for God when it comes to running matters of the church. If the pope covered up the abuse then he therefore must have been doing God's will, correct? If he did not follow "God's will" in doing so, then he is not infallible. Hence, the quandary the church faces that I feel will ultimately bring it down. Either God condoned the abusing of these children and ordered His Church to cover it up or the cornerstone of Catholic dogma related to papal infallibility is false. If it is false, then many of the traditions of the church will be reduced to nothing but false worship.
I'm very far from being a Catholic, but this is beyond silly. The Pope's orders are not an ex cathedra statement on faith or morals unless he specifies that they are. While no two Catholic scholars will agree on a list of all ex cathedra statements ever made, anyone who knows anything about the church knows they are not made frequently or frivolously.
If John Roberts' law clerks were running a drug ring out of his office and he evaded laws to protect them, you would not call it an instance of judicial review. But if you did, it would be no sillier than your quoted statement.
Who said they have no exposure to it? There's a difference between exposure and immersion. Those who are immersed in pop culture have a diminished ability to evaluate it objectively.
A couple of years ago I called my oldest teens into my office for a discussion of music. They are outstanding musicians themselves. We have brought them up on classical and folk music primarily, but with some selective music from contemporary genres. Some of their friends listen to rock music, and the subject had come up in family conversations. After talking about it a bit I pulled up a video of AC/DC's "Highway to Hell" - the music of my rebellious and inglorious youth. Naturally, it disgusted them thoroughly, and they asked not to finish the video. I gladly complied.
That's a normal, healthy, human response to something like "Highway to Hell" - revulsion and disgust. But if this kind of rubbish becomes a regular diet, as it is for millions of young people today, you lose the ability to discern its evil. So, I'm all for exposure (within limits), but not immersion. Some things are best kept at a distance.
Right after I graduated from college I took a summer job working as a handyman/landscaper at a local school for mentally disabled people. It was just a job while I looked for other opportunities; a way to earn some extra money. My boss was an evangelical Christian and quite into the whole "born again" and saving other people schtick. One day I was painting a hallway and listening to my headphones when he asked me what I was listening to. I told him, AC/DC "Highway to Hell". Quite repulsed he lectured me on the dangers of listening to such music and what it would do to my soul. Later he placed a pamphlet about being saved through Christ into my locker.
The next day, I made it a point to paint the hallway and quite loudly play a Godsmack CD. Once again, quite upset, he "banned" me from playing such music as it was an attack on his Christianity. In my best fresh out of college and smarter then everyone else tone I informed him that I was a Satanist and since there was no prohibition about listening to music while working, his religion didn't trump mine and I would listen to whatever I wanted to. If he had a problem we could go talk to HR about the pamphlet he left in my locker. He got the point.
Now, that story was an aside, but here we are left with a quandary. Myself and countless millions of others grew up listening to our "popular culture". Here we are many years later moral, upstanding, productive members of society. We are raising children, paying taxes, going to work and supporting charities. Statistically we are no more or less "moral" then those who came before us. Your thesis is essentially predicated on one massively failed point that there is only one acceptable morality and that there is only one institution from which that morality derives. The flaw is one of assuming that values=morals.
Morals are more of a universal constant that can be found across many cultures and time periods. Values are more direct things held by certain groups and that change overtime. Your values are not morality they are your values. What offends your values does not offend other peoples values and you have no business dictating what others values should be.
I remember going to many sleepovers, imitating the dance moves in this video, and changing the lyrics at the end to include all of our names.
I still think this is a super catchy dance song, but I didn't suddenly think that I should shake my butt everywhere and that my only personal value was related to the size and the shape of my butt.
Parents should set limits of course, but should also have open discussions with their kids about what is appropriate and what isn't. No kids live in a vacuum devoid of pop culture. But the job of a parent is to frame how pop culture may or may not differ from your family's value system. Pretending it doesn't exist causes a lot more problems.
That's sweet, but now his daughter is defending "I'm Sexy And I Know It" as appropriate for 3-8 year olds. Looks like a slippery slope to me.
I guess I don't see what is "inappropriate" about it. The 3yo will have no idea what it means. The 8yo not much more. Over the years as they grow, the notion that they are sexual creatures WILL occur to them, pop culture or no.
I guess I don't see what is "inappropriate" about it. The 3yo will have no idea what it means. The 8yo not much more. Over the years as they grow, the notion that they are sexual creatures WILL occur to them, pop culture or no.
Exactly! My favorite song as a 4 year old was Street Life by the Crusaders. I thought it was about street lights or something. And playing outside in the dark.
I didn't figure out until I was around 16 that it was about prostitutes finding the right "john" to settle down with before they are too old to be picky. I didn't suddenly think prostitution was a good lifestyle choice because I was singing along about the street life.
Half of my favorite songs as a kid were about questionable life choices (How about As We Lay by Shirley Murdoch, Papa Was a Rolling Stone, Push It by Salt and Pepa, Creep by TLC, Lithium by Nirvana...), but my parents did their job and taught me about the decisions I should be making, and when I was old enough to understand what those catchy lyrics meant, I knew to place them in the catchy lyrics box and not the life mottoes box.
I didn't figure out until I was around 16 that it was about prostitutes finding the right "john" to settle down with before they are too old to be picky. I didn't suddenly think prostitution was a good lifestyle choice because I was singling along about the street life.
Telling lies is not nice. Please return to the topic of this thread.
What lies? That the insitution from which you derive your values that you choose to use as a basis to sit in judgement of society is derived from one of the most immoral and hypocritical institutions to grace the face of the Earth?
How can I avoid the topic of your faith and it's faults when the core of your argument is that such things offend your values as determined by your faith? No one is telling you how to believe or what is appropriate for your children, yet you are essentially telling us that we are destroying our children by exposing them to things that run counter to your values. This thread started out as a generic "kids are being corrupted by pop culture" thread. All it was missing were the Plato quotes, someone graciously posted the list of other corrupting music from across the centuries. YOU introduced your faith as the moral guiding principle by linking to a Catholic website referencing the demoralizing aspects of music.
Quote:
Originally Posted by somebodynew
This is absolutely and completely inaccurate. ..." when, in the exercise of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, in virtue of his supreme apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole Church"
There are a lot of rules and regulations around when he is in the exercise of his office in this way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by djacques
I'm very far from being a Catholic, but this is beyond silly. The Pope's orders are not an ex cathedra statement on faith or morals unless he specifies that they are. While no two Catholic scholars will agree on a list of all ex cathedra statements ever made, anyone who knows anything about the church knows they are not made frequently or frivolously.
Forgive me for clouding my point. The point is that the doctrine of papal infallibility while supposed to be limited to only matters directly related to the faith has in practice during the current crisis become spread to a general idea of infallibility. Therefore it is not the dotrine itself, but the culture among the senior leadership that it has spawned. Anyone who follows or watches the Catholic Church has seen the change, it is quite palpable in their current statements and actions regarding the sex abuse case.
Some of these articles touch on the reasons for the connection between the culture of "papal infallibility" and the sex abuse scandal. Further, one must realize that the current pope's view on infallibility goes well beyond the classical definition and in his previous role as head of the Doctrine of the Faith as well as during his papacy he has extended the use of papal infallibility to cement many conservative dogmas within the church. It is not about what the Catholic Encyclopedia says it means, it's about how it is practiced and viewed by the pope and senior Vatican officials. Even Catholic Newsletters in the US have been discussing the issues revolving around "creeping infallibility" and the culture it is creating in the Vatican:
defending "I'm Sexy And I Know It" as appropriate for 3-8 year olds.
No. But you've decided I am.
This is where your threads always go south, BTW. You start deciding what people are thinking and dictating what they can say and when they can speak. Proclaiming anything said that disagrees with what you think to be a lie. So much for Berkeley. *Raised fist in protest*
It's apropos to the thread, however. You don't like pop culture so you censor it. You aren't the first in the Catholic Church. "Great job with the ceiling in the Sistine Chapel, Mic, but the nakedness has to go!!"
Last edited by DewDropInn; 10-15-2012 at 03:07 PM..
Forgive me for clouding my point. The point is that the doctrine of papal infallibility while supposed to be limited to only matters directly related to the faith has in practice during the current crisis become spread to a general idea of infallibility. Therefore it is not the dotrine itself, but the culture among the senior leadership that it has spawned. Anyone who follows or watches the Catholic Church has seen the change, it is quite palpable in their current statements and actions regarding the sex abuse case.
It's quite "palpable" that the boss is frequently treated as "infallible" in any hierarchical institution and that his opinion carries a lot of informal weight--whether you are talking about the Catholic church or a 7-11.
It's quite "palpable" that the boss is frequently treated as "infallible" in any hierarchical institution and that his opinion carries a lot of informal weight--whether you are talking about the Catholic church or a 7-11.
You honestly see no difference over how this "concept" is applied in the Catholic Church and how it applies in other places?
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