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I would like to steal a comment you made in an other thread to highlight a slight difference I have with you here. In another thread, you said "As a parent we have the obligation to protect our children from themselves." And it struck me that it speaks to what I mean about rules here. I don't universally agree with this. I think that there is a balance to be struck between this and allowing them to fail, screw up and suffer the consequences. We need to protect them from themselves when the consequences are unrecoverable (kill themselves, kill someone else, suffer debilitating injury). If they hit college age, and they have no already been allowed to suffer the consequences of mismanaging their money, We Have Waited To Long to allow them to understand consequences.
Well the consequences of mismanaging their allowance and the consequences of mismanaging thousands of dollars are different. I agree that context matters but I think that the tens of thousands of dollars that are at stake in the other thread are very different from the dollars a teen is used to handling.
Quote:
Originally Posted by somebodynew
A rule is an externally dictated mandate against which it is natural to rebel. If there is no external dictate, there is nothing to rebel against.
External dictates exist in the world. And kids have to learn how to comply with those external dictates. We don't have a ton of rules. We manage to be in touch with our kids without having to micromanage how many minutes they are allowed to do this and what age they have to be to that. But you do need to have rules because at some time in your child's life they will need to be able to comply with external dictates.
I read a few articles, so I'm not sure which it was, but one of the comments gave me a memorable wince. Someone lamented that the boys' life was ruined because of this girl, which is sickening but nothing new. He went on to say that a girl was in a similar situation back when he was in school, and she and her family did the right thing and left town.
Well it is sad that the boys' lives are ruined - and it's too bad their parents did not take steps to guide and supervise them but provided not only massive amounts of alcohol but an empty house on top of it, so it's the poor parenting that has led to ruined lives. The parents only need to look in the mirror.
This kind of thing does not happen at non-alcoholic parties where the parents are monitoring what's going on and where all the kids have parents who expect them to be home by a certain normal time.
Like they say, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, and there's no cure once a kid has crossed the line into being rapist, or dead in a drunken car accident. In my opinion the punishment is far too lenient, it should be life in prison with no parole for rape, the bad part is without the large amount of alcohol and idiot parents, this did not have to happen.
Some media have bent over backwards to take pity on how this case has ruined the lives of these boys, how they were such great football players, yada yada yada. CNN comes to mind especially and then they have been called out for taking the good ole boys attitude about it all. Seems to me everybody has taken a hit in this case but to blame it on the girl for getting drunk ("she had it coming") is beyond sick.
You are deluding yourself if that's what you think.
Kids lie. And kids get lied to. By adults and by their friends. And Mom thinks they are the last little butterfly on earth who would be at a party where kids are drinking and getting high because she has rules. Yes, those rules help when the party is after school and Mom thinks Butterfly is at choir practice. (The first place I ever got offered drugs was a YWCA event, in a home in the "rich" part of town and the suppliers' parents were pillars of the community. They were about 13 and their parents were in another room. So much for the "good" kids not getting involved in anything bad.)
Besides the fact that the kid who has been kept at home by the parent who thinks, "Not my child! I have rules and he'd never, ever go to that party!" becomes the easiest mark in town because he's got no idea how the real world works. He's the person the sociopath can smell from 100 yards away. He's also the person the guy selling the junker on Craigslist is happy to meet.
Believe me -- I know kids will lie but parents don't have to be stupid and fall for every lie. Kids need to know that mom and dad are always two steps ahead of them and that parents might even check out a few things. A parent doesn't have to be so dense that they can't call up another parent to verify information or can't check the odometer on a car to know that a child that said he drove from point A to point B could not have done only that if the mileage shows much more.
And if you tell a child to be home by 11 pm or 12 pm, no lie is going to cover up that they came home at 5 am.
In these days of cell phones, there is almost no excuse because you can call or text a child to ask them what's going on, is everything okay, are they getting home in time. I always wait up for my kids so I know that they made it home CLOSE to the time they were told to be home and that they're in good shape.
I make it a point to know who they will be with, but also by setting a normal enough curfew instead of allowing them to be out all night, even if they sneak and go to a party, and even if they take a drink, they're not going to overindulge because they still have to get home and they'll know I'm going to carry on a conversation and observe their overall condition.
I'm not afraid to tell them when they object and tell me their friends don't have curfews and that their friends can stay out until dawn that it's time to find new friends and I do point out that nothing good is going on out there after midnight and they need to be home.
Well it is sad that the boys' lives are ruined - and it's too bad their parents did not take steps to guide and supervise them but provided not only massive amounts of alcohol but an empty house on top of it, so it's the poor parenting that has led to ruined lives. The parents only need to look in the mirror.
This kind of thing does not happen at non-alcoholic parties where the parents are monitoring what's going on and where all the kids have parents who expect them to be home by a certain normal time.
Like they say, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, and there's no cure once a kid has crossed the line into being rapist, or dead in a drunken car accident. In my opinion the punishment is far too lenient, it should be life in prison with no parole for rape, the bad part is without the large amount of alcohol and idiot parents, this did not have to happen.
How about giving kids great goals and something to look forward to and live for beyond the high school hurrah?
I think that is why even though we were welcome and we knew where the drinky parties were, my friends and I never went. Didn't interest us.
Yes - pretty much same here. My dad's wrath was something we feared more than being uncool. If he said be home by 10, no later than 10:30, we would be home no later than 10:30. Even for prom he "generously" allowed for a midnight curfew -- no later than 12:30 am.
The fact is that most kids will push against the rules. If you have fair rules, like an 11 pm curfew, a child might argue, might push it by showing up 20 minutes later than you told him. If you set the boundaries out further, normal children will push up against them.
Just because a child will test and object and push the boundaries doesn't mean that you can have no rules for your children like so many parents seem to believe. Oh -- a child might lie! Therefore can't have any rules because you only cause the child to lie. Or you tell a child he can go visit his friend and be home by 11 pm and he sneaks off to party -- so you cannot forbid wild drunken parties and must accept that he drank so much he passed out until 8 am and then came walking in the door. What you can do is see that he walked in that door at 11 pm and appears to be in good enough condition so even if he snuck off to a party, it's cool because he's fine and home safe.
You have rules, you argue, you set your expectations and follow through, you don't give up being a parent because a child objects or you're so afraid to be a parent and can't handle being less than a best buddy or fear they might lie to you. Yes, a child might lie -- and as a parent you can have even worse consequences for them if you catch them lying to you. I never dared lie to my dad -- yes some believe that all kids are *supposed* to lie but interestingly enough there are kids that never lie to their parents.
Also with young males, there is pack behaviour to watch for. This kind of thing happens with certain types of kids more than others. Kids who have 1 or 2 close nice friends aren't as likely to get into this kind of thing.
Do you believe that if only alcohol-free punch was served at this party that the rapes would have taken place? When I was in high school it was the wild kids where there was a lot of drinking that stuff happened.
Those parties I was allowed to attend where the strongest beverage was apple cider to go with doughnuts were a whole lot tamer.
Or maybe it's the out-of-control kids who are already rapists are the ones more likely to be at the all-night drunk fest. Either way -- it's best to keep your kids as far from the binge drinkers as you can.
I said as much -- yes a kid might go to a friend's house and they immediately head to a party and a keg of beer at 8 pm but I'm going to be observing and having a conversation with him when he comes in that door at 11 pm - or shortly after (I'm a pretty lenient parent) and I'll still know the child is in good enough shape because if he did drink he was smart enough to stop by 9 pm so he metabolizes it before coming in that door.
I know kids will push against the rules but that doesn't mean I've thrown up my hands and agreed to no rules.
Yes, I do everything - and more that I can to make sure my kids aren't sexually assaulted. I remember my parents telling me when I was about 18 to be very careful at parties because people put drugs into drinks and rolling my eyes because what did my parents know about parties. I still listened, later in college, I heard enough to know that's exactly what people did.
I don't think a child is normal if they don't attempt to skirt the rules a bit.
I agree! Okay, well, I wouldn't have thought that MY kids were normal, if at some point, they hadn't tried to skirt the rules a bit. Sometimes, the best lessons are mistakes we make. All we can do is hope that those mistakes aren't too big OR bad.
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(The first place I ever got offered drugs was a YWCA event, in a home in the "rich" part of town and the suppliers' parents were pillars of the community. They were about 13 and their parents were in another room. So much for the "good" kids not getting involved in anything bad.)
