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Also the fact that housework probably just isn't as time consuming anymore with all these modern day gadgets so they don't need to spend as much time.
Also, people have smaller families. I spent a lot less time doing laundry when my one son lived at home than my childhood friends' mothers did for families with 4 and 6 children. That probably accounts for 11 fewer hours of housework a week right there, with all the bedding, clothes, towels, etc. that didn't need to be washed, dried, and folded. Same with washing and drying dishes (no one I knew had a dishwasher when I was a kid).
There are historically only 2 regular posters who love to fan the flames of the Mommy Wars. The rest of us realize that the choices we make for our own families are so very unique and dependent on multiple factors that it is impossible to generalize or make assumptions.
We can frame such discussions under the "flaming-the-mommy-wars" heading and then dismiss them with a wave of the hand, all after having swept all inconvenient truths under the "female solidarity" carpet.
Or we can be honest about it and quit pretending that the amount of work WOHM-s shoulder everyday is the same as the work SAHM-s do - only different. This is done routinely on these boards and I wonder whether this has to do with the fact that WOH moms are much less likely to have the luxury of hanging out on discussion boards and making their favorite ideology look like "general consensus".
Perhaps this is the reason why only a "couple of posters" (apparently "rogues" to some) "flame the mommy wars".
Pretending that "there's nothing to talk about here" is not only dishonest but also harmful, unfair and offensive to mothers who who are increasingly burdened with expectations that they should be able to cover everything and cover it WELL, both at work and at home!
I have witnessed - several times! - the eye rolling of SAHM volunteeristas who were getting outraged over how only a few "involved" parents could be regularly counted on for volunteering - "whereas everyone else didn't seem to care much". When I gently suggested that some of the parents were probably burdened with double shifts and just couldn't do it, they formulated a pretty cavalier reply, along the lines of "you should care about your child's school no mater what". It sounded a lot like "Let them eat cake".
Don't just assume that ALL overworked moms who are breaking their backs trying to do right by their families all while meeting the demands of increasingly exacting employers and schools - will just sit down, bow their heads and accept completely inaccurate and harmful "Mommy Peace Treaties". Many are - because they are severely judged if they dare suggest otherwise - so they learn to sit quiet and know their place.
there are historically only 2 regular posters who love to fan the flames of the mommy wars.
Exhibit A:
Quote:
Originally Posted by syracusa
we can frame such discussions under the "flaming-the-mommy-wars" heading and then dismiss them with a wave of the hand, all after having swept all inconvenient truths under the "female solidarity" carpet.
Or we can be honest about it and quit pretending that the amount of work wohm-s shoulder everyday is the same as the work sahm-s do - only different. This is done routinely on these boards and i wonder whether this has to do with the fact that woh moms are much less likely to have the luxury of hanging out on discussion boards and making their favorite ideology look like "general consensus".
Perhaps this is the reason why only a "couple of posters" (apparently "rogues" to some) "flame the mommy wars".
Pretending that "there's nothing to talk about here" is not only dishonest but also harmful, unfair and offensive to mothers who who are increasingly burdened with expectations that they should be able to do cover everything and cover it well, both at work and at home!
I have witnessed - several times! - the eye rolling of sahm volunteeristas who were getting outraged over how only a few "involved" parents could be regularly counted on for volunteering - "whereas everyone else didn't seem to care much". When i gently suggested that some of the parents were probably burdened with double shifts and just couldn't do it, they formulated a pretty cavalier reply, along the lines of "you should care about your child's school no mater what". It sounded a lot like "let them eat cake".
Don't just assume that all overworked moms who are breaking their backs trying to do right by their families all while meeting the demands of increasingly exacting employers and schools - will just sit down, bow their heads and accept completely inaccurate and harmful "mommy peace treaties". Many are - because they are severely judged if they dare suggest otherwise - so they learn to sit quiet and know their place.
These articles always enflame the Mommy Wars. And this article seems pretty obvious and hardly told us something we don't already know. The conversation seems to always play out the same:
-SAHM's often (not always) try to justify how important their activities and responsibilities are which makes some people chuckle and some others shake their fingers and point in anger.
-WOHM's often (not always) try to impress that they work harder than anyone which makes some men frustrated because they work hard and makes SAHM's defensive.
-Some mothers choose to work (gasp!) or must work. Then some SAHM's charge in and state that you have to learn to cut costs and live more simply. (Uh, people need food and shelter.)
-Some women have a spouse who makes enough money to support the family and like to have the wife home to take care of things. (Ok, now let's accuse them of being spoiled and frivolous.)
I could go on, but why? My point here is that this is a ridiculous circle of blame, accusations, generalizations, personal anecdotes and unwanted advice. More women work outside of the home than ever before - that is a statistical reality. Being a non-working parent has changed dramatically (not too many folks grow their own food and make their clothes anymore). Life is generally easier and more comfortable now than it was 75 years ago, and especially for those who can afford material conveniences. And there is the simple reality that life has always been more comfortable for the wealthy. That's just the way it works. So, how about we stop glaring at each other, accusing each other, and one-upping each other because all it does is upset many caring, intelligent, valuable, hard working, charitable women. Oh, and some of them work outside of the home, some of them do not work in a paying job, and some of them go to lunch a lot.
So, who is going to flame me first? SAHM? WOHM? What assumptions will you make about my personal circumstances? If you are happy with yourself, the choices you have made to deal with cards you have been dealt, and find satisfaction in doing your life's work in whatever form it takes, then there should be no more accusations or insulting advice. Maybe we should each worry more about pulling that big log out of our own eye before we worry about the speck in our neighbor's.
These are all platitudes that don't address the POINT of the thread.
You are also wrong when arguing that "Life is generally easier and more comfortable now than it was 75 years ago". You did fix it a little bit when you added "especially for those who can afford material conveniences".
For those families where BOTH parents have to work long hours and then come home and stay on top of children's "modern day" needs, as well as household needs, life is NOT easier and more comfortable than it was 75 years ago.
It is much harder - because it is 100 times faster and it is asking adults to address 100 times more things in fewer hours available.
The fact that you apply an "ease of contemporary life" theory to everyone - only betrays your bias.
Syracusa, what do you want from these discussions?
You're right! Life is 100% harder, not just for me but for everybody in my family, when I work. There is constant to-ing and fro-ing. My husband and I never have ANY time alone together. Every conversation revolves around freaking carpool, who forgot to pay the utility bill, and why there's nothing in the pantry to cook for dinner. I don't like it, he doesn't like it, and we have the resources to do things differently. There it is: LIFE IS EASIER THIS WAY!
Look, I'm sure that your life is incredibly busy and stressful. I seriously don't know how you do it. Somebody should give you a medal... Or a cookie... Or a whole box of cookies!
I really don't understand why you go looking to argue about this stuff! What is the point?
And now please excuse me while I go beat my head against the wall as punishment for breaking my personal vow not to engage in these types of threads.
For those families where BOTH parents have to work long hours and then come home and stay on top of children's "modern day" needs, as well as household needs, life is NOT easier and more comfortable than it was 75 years ago.
Seventy five years ago this country was in the depths of the Great Depression. I'm guessing you don't know very much about what life was like for Americans in 1938.
As difficult as life is for working and SAHMs today the average American woman had it MUCH tougher in 1938. Back when ONE parent was lucky to have some sort of an actual job. Life is definitely easier and more comfortable than it was in 1938. I'll recommend a book called "Hard Times", by Studs Terkel, which is an oral history of the Depression. Read it and come back and tell us how difficult your life is compared to 1938.
Last edited by DewDropInn; 12-06-2013 at 03:09 PM..
Again, I can't speak for most "SAHM" but in my upper middle class southern california burb, the SAHM don't seem to do much. They are basically retired. It only bothers me, as a man, because I know their husbands are constantly stressed about the debt that could easily be eliminated in the SAHM just took on a part time gig. But they don't. Instead they insit they are providing some great function volunteering at schools that could easily replace them with aspiring teaching students. Sorry, but I'm generally not impressed.
Again, I can't speak for most "SAHM" but in my upper middle class southern california burb, the SAHM don't seem to do much. They are basically retired. It only bothers me, as a man, because I know their husbands are constantly stressed about the debt that could easily be eliminated in the SAHM just took on a part time gig. But they don't. Instead they insit they are providing some great function volunteering at schools that could easily replace them with aspiring teaching students. Sorry, but I'm generally not impressed.
Fortunately, for you, it's not your business. We all do what works for our own families with the knowledge we are only privy to.
Again, I can't speak for most "SAHM" but in my upper middle class southern california burb, the SAHM don't seem to do much. They are basically retired. It only bothers me, as a man, because I know their husbands are constantly stressed about the debt that could easily be eliminated in the SAHM just took on a part time gig. But they don't. Instead they insit they are providing some great function volunteering at schools that could easily replace them with aspiring teaching students. Sorry, but I'm generally not impressed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Braunwyn
Fortunately, for you, it's not your business. We all do what works for our own families with the knowledge we are only privy to.
For a second I'd hoped the message would be more rationally received if coming from a man; but I should have known better.
All discussions like this invariably end with "yes, and so what - it's not your business!".
Which is nice because it only proves the inconvenient point.
On this boards arguments about various life situations are made every second. The moment a poster starts pressing a key to formulate a response about WHATEVER they just made it "their business" simply because they are about to express a view about that life situation. Views are not all equal because not all have the same validity.
Here, this has not been about WOH moms "demanding medals" or "trying to impress others" as much as the "straw man" did his very best.
The discussion was about one simple truth: there is a popular assumption floating around that the modern SAHM role (hardly limited to women with infants!) involves as much work, as much worth, and it is as difficult as the WOHM role - just in a different way.
This is simply NOT TRUE. This was my only point.
I have nothing against people making the best of their luck in life and having a more relaxed life than others. What is irritating is the hypocrisy behind the argument that, when all is said and done, all mothers work just as hard.
This is not only NOT TRUE - but it also creates a hostile environment for WOHM-s.
Such unfair assumptions often have serious implications in terms of workplace policies, performance evaluations, criteria for salary increase, as well as educational policies, including schools' expectations related to "parental involvement", definitions of "parental involvement", scheduling of school-related events, relations with the school, the role of extra-curricular activities in a child's academic career, etc.
This is why it is important - and not because WOH women want a "medal".
I can assure you most would be all too happy to have one less trinket to find a place for in the house - and would prefer "a break" instead.
I am done here, thanks for reading. Hope many do.
Last edited by syracusa; 12-06-2013 at 08:59 PM..
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