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A child's performance in school is generally the product of three factors:
1. Parents' support level and value placed in education
2. Child's drive to learn (which is most often learned from the parent)
3. Quality of instruction/teacher
Sometimes you get an anomaly, like a child who works very hard, values education, and despite every obstacle (awful schools, poor teacher quality, parents who don't care), manages to overcome and achieve greatness. Other times you have great parents and a great school and child who either just doesn't want to try or doesn't fit well with an academic environment (sort of personality who needs to be doing something more manual or trade oriented as a career).
I think often the parent factor gets linked with the kid factor because while those are sometimes greatly different, it's more common for them to be more closely matched. A kid who tries from a supportive family will succeed in any school, no matter the environment. A kid who doesn't try from an unsupportive family will fail in any school, no matter how great the school or teaching.
I think it depends. If parents do nothing to set the stage for a good academic environment, the blame rests with the parents. If there is no emphasis on academics or support from the parent, that is not a good thing. Or if a parent ends up doing their child's homework or keeps covering for them, that is not a good thing either.
But your question is a great one because our family is really grappling with this right now. You see we are highly educated parents who have set high academic standards for our kids. After school is the time to focus on studies. I'm careful to not over schedule their activities because the school year is the time to focus on your studies and do your best. We are pretty structured at home when it comes to school.
My son struggles with school but tries very hard. I have to work very closely with him although I don't do his work for him. He is in remedial reading/math and has had tutors in the past. He does try but things come a bit slowly to him. He does have a good attitude though and that makes a world of difference.
My daughter.....ah.....I could write pages about her. We have done everything. Stayed on top of her with grades, got her tutors, put in a reward system, have given her so much emotional support over the years, etc. She is unmotivated, has a crappy attitude about everything and has emotional problems on top of everything else. Defiance could describe her---since the early years. We have done everything but it is a struggle to get her to study or put any effort into school. My 11 year old son puts more time into homework than she does. When you talk with her calmly about school, her response is, "Well I've always passed the current grade and the school hasn't done anything." She doesn't understand the part of having decent grades and going on to college. She lives in a little self absorbed bubble and thinks that nothing will happen. She just received a very low grade (45%) on the state exam diagnostic. When I spoke with her about this, her reply, "Chill out and stop nagging. I will pass." Highly doubtful but we shall see. At least where we live, they must pass the state test otherwise they don't proceed. She may end up in remedial tutoring (which will go over really well). If she doesn't pass, it is summer school. If she still can't pass, it may be a repeat of the grade. It is so frustrating. When I do speak with her about grades, reading, it can result in a nasty outburst that goes on for hours. This weekend I called mobile crisis after an escalating argument that started when I had both kids do some school reading.
I feel that another problem with an unmotivated kid is the school themselves. I've actually spoken with our last school about holding her back or at least summer school. The response--"We don't hold back." Red flags only go up if they had 2 or 3 F's. This was when she had a mixture of an F, some D's and C's. The bar was set so low that an old lady with a walker should step over it. Kids just keep getting passed up the grade level. And this was a district with decent schools.
It is really depressing quite frankly. At this point, I don't think she will go onto college. Heck, I doubt that she will be able to hold down a minimum wage job with her attitude. We are really at our wit's end with this kid. Of course when you talk with her about this, it is all our fault....mostly mine. I will certainly take my share of parenting blame. With regards to school though and her attitude, nope that is on her. She is old enough (14 in just a few days) to start making better decisions and has chosen not to do so. One thing I forgot to mention. She is capable--probably fairly smart. Normal IQ. She does have the aptitude. I hate to say it but she sounds ignorant compared to her peers. When she says something completely ignorant, her peers have actually said something. Last summer we were riding in the car with some friends. I forget what we were discussing but it was academic in nature. My friend's kids who were 9 at the time knew more and made a comment like, "Wow J, you really don't know anything." I'm embarrassed for her.
I'm sure that we will be in therapy for years to address these issues. I'm so tired.
Sorry for the long response to your post but it feels good to vent.
Siggy you seem like a good parent. Your daughter seems like the type who cant handle any criticism. You just have to set consequences for her behavior. Give her more chores around the house. Maybe she just isnt used to doing anything that requires effort and has too much handed to her. She probably thinks that if she fails/drops out of school/gets pregnant, etc her parents will always be there to support her or take care of her for the rest of her life. Let her know that if she doesnt amount to anything, she will have to deal with homelessness, not having a place to stay, etc. Do you think she might need bootcamp or some type of survival training that prepares her for the real world and gives her consequences. Please do something, I'm telling you this as a friend, b/c she is very AT RISK.
There are many articles about how American kids are not performing in school. Most of the articles blame the parents, not the kids themselves. The teachers get some of the blame, but not as much as the parents.
Well a couple of my kids were lousy students and now they are working for minimum wage with just a High School Diploma.
Is this my fault as the parent?
Do you have kids who are poor students and not motivated to do well in school? How much of this is your fault as parents?
Yes, it is our fault if our kids don't understand the importance of education and work hard in school. Moderator Cut
Last edited by Jaded; 01-14-2014 at 09:04 AM..
Reason: Removed racial comment
No, of course not. You can rarely tell when the spark just dies or why.
I do think part of the problem is the system. And your environment.
I know for myself, I was an EXTREMELY curious kid who wanted to know everything. Reading before 4, loved math and science, etc. I spent the first few years of schooling at an international private school in Indonesia. I was 9 when we left, and in the 5th grade. I loved school. I HATED missing a single day.
We came to California and were enrolled in an award-winning public school system with a mix of rich, poor, etc.
And everything died. I HATED it. I hated school, I could give a crap about what was going on, and the reason I got As and all honors/etc was because I was smart enough (lucky) to be able to pick up everything that was going on in class so I didn't have to study at home. And I knew my parents weren't going to put up with bad grades. They were on me like white on rice.
Why did it change to terrible? The rote nonsense. The waiting for other kids to catch up on a concept. The bullying and problems and distractions caused by kids who (I'm sorry to say this, but it's true) came from lower SE status and broken homes...it just sucked.
When we moved to Texas and into a wealthy enclave, it got a lot better (as far as all the distracting kids who didn't care about learning). Manners were expected. Dress code enforced. And there was an expectation of academic excellence (because the parents were educated).
But the system was still so rigid and boring.
When I got to college and *I* was more in control of my learning again, I totally blossomed.
There was recently an article out there about how we don't just do a disservice to our slower kids - that gifted kids are usually shafted, too, by the system in place. If it weren't for their parents, they might likely not reach their full potential.
A large percentage of high school dropouts are gifted, for just the reasons you state. Educrats care about bringing up the bottom while the top kids languish. It's a disgrace.
Siggy you seem like a good parent. Your daughter seems like the type who cant handle any criticism. You just have to set consequences for her behavior. Give her more chores around the house. Maybe she just isnt used to doing anything that requires effort and has too much handed to her. She probably thinks that if she fails/drops out of school/gets pregnant, etc her parents will always be there to support her or take care of her for the rest of her life. Let her know that if she doesnt amount to anything, she will have to deal with homelessness, not having a place to stay, etc. Do you think she might need bootcamp or some type of survival training that prepares her for the real world and gives her consequences. Please do something, I'm telling you this as a friend, b/c she is very AT RISK.
You're right, very right. When I read Siggy's post I thought 'it may be too late' to turn his daughter around. She may have to learn the hard way. Therapy for Siggy may help him but may do nothing to help her. Teenagers can't see the future because they don't have the experience and their brains aren't fully formed. She has no concept of what her life will be like in 10 years with no education. She has no idea what it will cost to support herself or how she's going to get there. She will never believe that she'll be homeless and have no money because that just isn't her reality.
Learning disabilities seem to have a spiraling effect. A normal IQ, yet lack of motivation, can come from feeling defeated before one even starts. Year after year of feeling out of touch, can make a person less and less curious. Did you notice when your kids were younger, if they seemed more eager, yet less so as they progressed through school? Or was there a difference before they started school, even if it was a subtle difference? I have two kids, a son and a daughter. Same parents, yet they are night and day. The only differences that seem obvious in their upbringing were that as a firstborn, she was highly alert and responsive to the world around her, and curious, and as she grew up she was exposed to a lot of attention as the first grandchild. The son, did not have much eye contact as a baby, and he was colicky and seemed to cry for no reason. As the last of five grandchildren, he seemed to be ignored by extended family, and my husband and I began a business during my pregnancy which left me exhausted, between the business, my young daughter and fatigue during pregnancy. During my first pregnancy, my husband was far more nurturing. During the second, he totally was not and in fact it was a physiologically, emotionally stressful time that could easily have affected my unborn son. The firstborn, who exhibited great curiosity as an infant and for the rest of her life, turned out to be a highly productive adult. The second born, as it turned out, had learning disabilities, and after a while I think he just gave up. He received services starting at 3 years of age, but the school district really wanted it phased it out. I advocated for him throughout his school years, and made sure he got as much extra help as I possibly could. With tutoring and by working with him on homework and involving him in community activities, he did the best he could, and he was a mid-B student. The fact remains that he struggled tremendously since he was a kindergartner. Around 13 he grew rather down about it his differences from other kids. Still with extra supports privately paid for (since the school district pulled back), he graduated with that mid-B average and was accepted by a few different schools, but he and I both realized that he was not ready. When he graduated from high school, I gave him a year of a special program with learning supports to get him started in college (which was crazy expensive and almost broke me entirely). He progressed a lot that year, living away from home but with guidance from other people in all areas of his life. He was also taking medications for attention deficit disorder by the at point. After a year, he came home, and without those external supports he spiraled downward. He still attends community college, with a light course load, but the crux of the problem in my estimation seems to be that doesn't ask enough questions at school, or seek extra help or any tutoring, and when I ask how he's doing, he more or less tells me to mind my own business. He is 20 now, and after some Ds and an F, and a very light course load, I asked him why he is not seeking out help at the community college he is attending and he flat-out told me, "It's no use, I just can't learn". I reminded him of those grades from high school, and that he was a mid-B student, and did pretty good on his SATs, and he said none of that counted because he had help. In other words, he feels that to ask for help is to be "less than" or shows a deficiency on his part. Because he doesn't want to appear like a "dummy', in other words, pride because he thinks for other kids it all comes naturally. He doesn't ask questions in class, and frankly he doesn't always understand the directions of the assignment. He thinks it should be easy, like it appeared to be for his sister, and it appears to be for other kids. He's too old for me to advocate for him now, so even though I encourage him, it's still a struggle for him. My point is, maybe apparent lack of motivation could be for many different reasons including childhood attention and supports or lack of them, or else perhaps it is sensory overload, attention deficit disorder, dyslexia, or other learning difficulties that can make a child feel beaten down and so they give up, and appear unmotivated and lazy. Clearly, every child is different, and coping with different challenges. I don't know that it's always the parents' fault, but then maybe a child could be "spoiled" by the notion that life is supposed to be easy and they don't "want" to exert themselves. I don't think it's so black and white a situation. A parent cannot always tell what the source of the problem is. But don't count out that there may be hidden learning disabilities. She might just feel that she "just can't learn". These may be indicators that something is amiss, and it might not be due to the environment, it might be something neurologically hard-wired. That requires a lot of investigating, and seeking outside help to figure it out. No doubt parenting makes a huge difference, but there's always the possibility something could have happened to them as a child you don't even know about, even a blow to the head if they fell, that affected brain development. Or some other incident affecting them psychologically. I don't think these things are easy to figure out, and the process requires an incredible amount of patience.
Last edited by primegolden; 01-14-2014 at 03:23 AM..
Reason: left out a "not" which changed entire meaning of sentence, and clarified an age-related statement
Siggy you seem like a good parent. Your daughter seems like the type who cant handle any criticism. You just have to set consequences for her behavior. Give her more chores around the house. Maybe she just isnt used to doing anything that requires effort and has too much handed to her. She probably thinks that if she fails/drops out of school/gets pregnant, etc her parents will always be there to support her or take care of her for the rest of her life. Let her know that if she doesnt amount to anything, she will have to deal with homelessness, not having a place to stay, etc. Do you think she might need bootcamp or some type of survival training that prepares her for the real world and gives her consequences. Please do something, I'm telling you this as a friend, b/c she is very AT RISK.
Thank you DD and Lilly. We have been looking at these programs or at least something away from home. Every time we reach the crisis point, things seem to settle back down and my husband in particular backs down. She is seriously at risk and we need to keep trying. My daughter was adopted at an older age so we have all the underlying adoption issues as well. Good fun indeed.
We've had all the talks about consequences, have set consequences, etc. Nothing gets through. Now it is time for professional help in one form or another. I would love to see her in an outward bound or extensive boot camp program. When my daughter turns 17, we are thinking of taking her to a recruiter and encouraging military service. Both my husband and I served and know how this can turn a life around.
But alas, I get off topic from unmotivated students. Wonder if I should start a boot camp thread?
I believe it is 95% the parents fault if they dont foster a love of learning into their children. The teachers today are just glorified babysitters. Now the AP and advanced course teachers actually teach, but not your every day public school teachers. And before you teachers come one here and flame me, I am young and not too far removed from high school so dont try it. I remember perfectly how "hard" you tried to foster love of the FCAT, I mean learning, into us.
That being said if your child sits in front of the tv with you every night, or in front of a video game system, dont expect them to go to med school.
Thank you DD and Lilly. We have been looking at these programs or at least something away from home. Every time we reach the crisis point, things seem to settle back down and my husband in particular backs down. She is seriously at risk and we need to keep trying. My daughter was adopted at an older age so we have all the underlying adoption issues as well. Good fun indeed.
We've had all the talks about consequences, have set consequences, etc. Nothing gets through. Now it is time for professional help in one form or another. I would love to see her in an outward bound or extensive boot camp program. When my daughter turns 17, we are thinking of taking her to a recruiter and encouraging military service. Both my husband and I served and know how this can turn a life around.
But alas, I get off topic from unmotivated students. Wonder if I should start a boot camp thread?
Honestly? Your daughter doesn't sound ALL THAT "at risk" to me. You haven't mentioned there's any serious experimentation with drugs or alcohol, actually being held back, criminal behavior, promiscuity or anything like that. She's just got some defiance issues, she's kind of self-absorbed and she's irresponsible. It's called being a teenager. Boot camp could screw her up far more than it could help her - I once lived with a man who had been through one of those programs as a child and he was still coping with the PTSD decades later. Your kid isn't that messed up - are you really thinking that turning her over to strangers to break her down and rebuild her is THAT good of an idea?
It sounds like her early years did not provide a solid foundation before you adopted her. That's REALLY hard to fix, and maybe college isn't in the cards for her. That's not the end of the world. I have a cousin who dropped out of her decidedly "meh" college one credit short of graduating and drifted for a few years. She eventually took a temp position at an international corporation and has worked her way into a very successful career. Another relative was headed down a path of drugs and crime, but pulled himself out of the tailspin at the very last minute to learn a trade and become a very successful and respected businessman.
Maybe she'll go into the military, but maybe not. There are a ton of options between that and a college degree. And maybe she'll struggle at times. Maybe she'll struggle a lot. But mostly kids from loving homes, with attentive parents who don't spoil them, do OK in life, if not fabulous, ya know?
Just don't enable her, and keep doing what you're doing. I'm assuming you're working with an expert or two in children's mental health issues too.
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