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Old 10-15-2014, 01:59 AM
 
3,279 posts, read 5,302,931 times
Reputation: 6149

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Quote:
Originally Posted by kelly237 View Post
If she is able to zip and will not when asked to it is an obedience issue...That is the picture the mom painted at first saying she was able and did zip for the dad & teachers...

Then the mom added about the zipping difficulty...
No way would I be hard on the issue if she is having trouble with the zipping....

A smart mom could test this out in no time...Ask her to zip up to go do something she wants to do
like get ice creme...Be busy and watch to see if she zips it right up or struggles...
Yes indeed. While I do think that there are things parents can be ridiculous about, I don't think this is one of them. I am speaking of the expectation that her child zips simply because her mother told her to.

See, even though the child is capable of zipping (and it is silly for the mother to do it for her), and it is the child not the parent who feels the discomfort of the cold, just the same I'm the type that feels that she should zip for the simple reason--because I (or the mom, rather) said so. Where I come from, you do what your parents say, whether you like it or not. Period. The day you move out and pay your own bills is the day you can do what you want 100% with no feedback from your parents.

Besides the aspect of letting them feel the discomfort, I might also

(1) Next time at the donut shop or the like, I'd get donuts right in front of her and not let her have any. She'd be told "I don't buy treats for children who disobey me. You EARN the privilege of treats etc by doing what I tell you, when I tell, you, how I tell you, and most of all because I tell you." (I did something like that to my son around age 3 when he was getting in candy without asking--I would do nothing "in the moment" (he had been told earlier about my expectations in terms of asking), but later, I'd make a pie, but he didn't get any, and he'd be made to sit and watch. During this time he would be told "you had your sweets earlier, and I don't reward bratty behavior. If you had done like you were told, you'd be enjoying this right now. It's YOUR fault you aren't able to. You brought it on yourself.")

(2) Have the child wear a shirt underneath the jacket that says "if you can read this, I'm being a brat." It's kind of like that the "shaming" you read about sometimes, where a child in trouble has to wear a sign on the street corner etc. Thus, she will HAVE to wear the jacket to prevent that message from being displayed.

Yes the child is capable of feeling pain and deciding what they want to do. Yes a child should have some autonomy. Even so, where I come from, you obey your parents, end of story. If you don't like it, get your own place. Until then, zip your lips as well as your jacket. If I were the parent, you could hate me and resent me all you want, it won't affect me in the least. It's YOUR choice to respond that way vs having a spirit of obedience.

 
Old 10-15-2014, 08:27 AM
 
16,579 posts, read 20,658,614 times
Reputation: 26860
Quote:
Originally Posted by shyguylh View Post
Yes indeed. While I do think that there are things parents can be ridiculous about, I don't think this is one of them. I am speaking of the expectation that her child zips simply because her mother told her to.

See, even though the child is capable of zipping (and it is silly for the mother to do it for her), and it is the child not the parent who feels the discomfort of the cold, just the same I'm the type that feels that she should zip for the simple reason--because I (or the mom, rather) said so. Where I come from, you do what your parents say, whether you like it or not. Period. The day you move out and pay your own bills is the day you can do what you want 100% with no feedback from your parents.

Besides the aspect of letting them feel the discomfort, I might also

(1) Next time at the donut shop or the like, I'd get donuts right in front of her and not let her have any. She'd be told "I don't buy treats for children who disobey me. You EARN the privilege of treats etc by doing what I tell you, when I tell, you, how I tell you, and most of all because I tell you." (I did something like that to my son around age 3 when he was getting in candy without asking--I would do nothing "in the moment" (he had been told earlier about my expectations in terms of asking), but later, I'd make a pie, but he didn't get any, and he'd be made to sit and watch. During this time he would be told "you had your sweets earlier, and I don't reward bratty behavior. If you had done like you were told, you'd be enjoying this right now. It's YOUR fault you aren't able to. You brought it on yourself.")

(2) Have the child wear a shirt underneath the jacket that says "if you can read this, I'm being a brat." It's kind of like that the "shaming" you read about sometimes, where a child in trouble has to wear a sign on the street corner etc. Thus, she will HAVE to wear the jacket to prevent that message from being displayed.

Yes the child is capable of feeling pain and deciding what they want to do. Yes a child should have some autonomy. Even so, where I come from, you obey your parents, end of story. If you don't like it, get your own place. Until then, zip your lips as well as your jacket. If I were the parent, you could hate me and resent me all you want, it won't affect me in the least. It's YOUR choice to respond that way vs having a spirit of obedience.
At what point do you plan to stop telling your children what to do about every aspect of their lives? Will you be telling them to zip their jackets when they're adults? While children need to obey their parents, they also need to learn to be autonomous, thinking individuals capable of taking care of themselves. This actually starts from the moment their born. Up until birth their mother was breathing for them and at birth they start breathing for themselves. As parents, a huge part of our job is letting go and letting them make decisions and learn about the natural consequences of the decision.

I don't want my daughter to obey me in every aspect of her life for fear that I'll punish her or shame her. I want her to learn to think for herself and trust herself to make the best possible decisions under the circumstances. IMO that is much more important than obedience.

Your idea of discipline sounds irrational and cruel to me.
 
Old 10-15-2014, 08:29 AM
 
2,154 posts, read 4,418,272 times
Reputation: 2165
Unless you live in the Antarctic, let it go. She is old enough to realize when she can no longer tolerate the cold. Stop giving into her whining. She is too old to whine anyway and by you even giving her attention when she whines, just gives her the knowledge that you will acknowledge that behavior and she won't stop it until much later.
 
Old 10-15-2014, 08:32 AM
 
Location: USA
7,776 posts, read 12,410,130 times
Reputation: 11812
When my two children were growing up I told them what we were going to do. My son has commented that the single mothers he has dated don't tell their children what will be done. They ask their children or child. He and I have discussed this many times with the consensus that my way is best for the child. When a child is older they can have a choice.
 
Old 10-15-2014, 08:43 AM
 
2,154 posts, read 4,418,272 times
Reputation: 2165
Time out, for both parent and child in cases 1 and 2...all for not zipping up a coat? ood lawd the teenage years are going to be awful for both involved if not zipping up a coat is deemed worthy of time outs Sorry, but if I am running errands with my child, who is also 7, I sure am not going to just sit around waiting for him to zip a coat. Nope, he can either be cold or he will zip his coat, but sure not sitting anywhere as though my time isn't valuable and as though coat issue is even worth wasting time on.

Did you ever think that maybe the child just isn't cold? And if she is really cold, she will eventually zip the coat herself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohky0815 View Post
Just say " Erin, i need you to zip your coat please, it is cold " and then if she starts to whine or claim she cant say " Erin, i asked you to zip your coat, if you need help, i will help you but you need to try first " (although you can just leave the help part out) and then you either help her after she tries OR she doesnt try and you say " Erin, I asked you to zip your coat and you did not listen/obey me, you need to go to time out (or whatever consequence you want)"

If school has the rule, you need to keep the same rule. You need to STOP zipping it for her to avoid whining. You need consequences of some sort.

Some ideas for when she wont zip:
1) " We will sit here until you zip your coat " and you literally sit there on the bench, car parked, where ever you are as long as it takes.
2) " You need to go into time out " and you find a place right there (NOT LATER) and sit her in time out. Yes even in public you can do time out.
 
Old 10-15-2014, 08:46 AM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
90,316 posts, read 120,475,124 times
Reputation: 35920
I just re-read the OP. It's not clear if you're walking her home or driving her. If driving, who cares? If walking, I can see why it irritates you, but she is a big girl now and is certainly capable of fixing her problem.
 
Old 10-15-2014, 08:53 AM
 
5,718 posts, read 7,230,404 times
Reputation: 10798
Q: How do you know when your mother is cold?

A: She tells YOU to put on a sweater.
 
Old 10-15-2014, 09:12 AM
 
3,279 posts, read 5,302,931 times
Reputation: 6149
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marlow View Post
At what point do you plan to stop telling your children what to do about every aspect of their lives? Will you be telling them to zip their jackets when they're adults? While children need to obey their parents, they also need to learn to be autonomous, thinking individuals capable of taking care of themselves. This actually starts from the moment their born. Up until birth their mother was breathing for them and at birth they start breathing for themselves. As parents, a huge part of our job is letting go and letting them make decisions and learn about the natural consequences of the decision.

I don't want my daughter to obey me in every aspect of her life for fear that I'll punish her or shame her. I want her to learn to think for herself and trust herself to make the best possible decisions under the circumstances. IMO that is much more important than obedience.

Your idea of discipline sounds irrational and cruel to me.
It's simple--you're in my house, your very JOB and reason for BEING practically is to do what I tell you, when I tell you, how I tell you and BECAUSE I tell you. That I am your parent means you are to do EVERYTHING I tell you, period.

No, it doesn't mean that it's boot camp here, not at all. Heck, I spend way more time being silly and playful and instructive with them than assertive. I absolutely agree about the "autonomy" thing as well, it's one reason why during cooking I allow them in the kitchen to watch as I do what I do, versus booting them out of the way to make it easier on myself (no distractions), because that way they learn and feel a sense of involvement in the process.

Also, there are many silly decisions they may make that I let go because it's not something I see as crucial at the moment, and I do want them to feel a sense of their own self as opposed to it feeling like "boot camp." Childhood should be fun, and it's nothing around here if not fun. Heck there is even video of me not only allowing them to jump on the bed when they were little (like 2 and 4, I think), but it even shows me jumping on the bed with them. They get muddy from playing outside, I'm like "they're kids, they're SUPPOSED to get muddy," so long as they aren't do that in their "Sunday best" or whatever.

Even so--yes, there are situations and such that arrive where you have to assert that, as the parent, your word is law and what you say goes. Bedtime was that for us, when our girl would whine "I don't want to go to bed" and get ugly about it, I didn't hesitate to go so far as to say "My word is final. If I hear another sound in here {I'd then smack the dresser loudly with the palm of my head} that's what I'll do to your butt." I'd then set a kitchen timer that "dings" to 5 minutes and say "if the lights are still on when that timer dings, same thing." She went to bed right away. If it was out of fear of repercussions, frankly--so what? It worked, and not just in terms of that she went straight to bed at that point, but that as time went on I didn't even have to reinforce it that way AND typically night time also included me being playful and sweet with her, no ugliness from her OR from me in the least.

I can understand, to an extent, respecting a child's wishes and giving them a sense of that what they feel and think matters, versus beating them down (psychologically) all the time. I remember one of my grandparents sometimes being overly stern to the point of being hateful just for the sake of being hateful, and those memories inspire me to not have it "boot camp" style here. At the same time, though, there's the idea that you're the child, I'm the parent, and as the parent you are entitled to respect on that basis alone, so long as you're not whipping them with bull whips or shocking them with cow prods etc. So--if the mother wants her child to zip up, the child should zip up--her coat AND her mouth. If she wants to walk around without a coat in 20'F temperatures when she's, say, 15 or so, fine, but until then, zip up--again, your coat AND your mouth.
 
Old 10-15-2014, 10:37 AM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
16,501 posts, read 19,575,896 times
Reputation: 13226
Am I the only one thinking "Just zip her coat"?
Why is this an issue?
As someone asked is she obedient and respectful in everything else?
If so, zip her coat and go about your day.
If not then I agree with everyone else to just let her freeze but if she's a "good kid" in most other respects: zip her coat! Why are you : "so sick of this"? It takes 2 seconds.
Re: she still likes to hold hands. That's cool. I'll be sad the say my son doesn't want to hold hands anymore. I don't care if he's 16 and we still hold hands.
 
Old 10-15-2014, 11:20 AM
 
5 posts, read 5,509 times
Reputation: 59
Hello,

I thought I would give you all a head's up that this person, Joanna, has been posting about the same issues, although slightly differently, across many parenting boards for the past several months. She changes her story slightly each time (sometimes the school wants the coat zipped, sometimes she wants it zipped) and she never listens to anyone or anything reasonable. I suggest googling "erin won't zip her coat" and then enjoy checking out her posts all over the web. And then save your breath (or you fingers)!

At debateandrelate dot com (where she posted as "guest") we can't figure out if she's a troll, a really bad parent, or a viral marketing campaign.

I hope I saved you some sanity!
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