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It's amazing that our parents and grandparents lived in a society of individuals that didn't all end up in psych wards or jail - considering that spanking was a perfectly acceptable method of discipline for most of them, then. If it's THAT bad - why are there SO many well-adjusted seniors? Spanking, using a willow switch, slapping, a belt, these were all -common- methods of discipline prior to Dr. Spock, and in fact even the bible recommends it, so this isn't a new thing that only happened in the USA.
It was common, AND it is common to find people who grew up in the era of this common discipline method, who turned out well-adjusted, contributing members of society. The ones who became psychos or other "undesireables" of society were the exception, not the rule. And yet, corporal punishment was the rule, not the exception.
How do all these studies explain that?
You don't know if that's true. I'm sure some seniors carried resentment to their graves. But, perhaps when things are common, they aren't questioned and studied the way things are now.
My parents didn't use corporal punishment, and I'm in my 50's. There were 7 of us, yet somehow, we grew up knowing there were consequences for misbehavior, but they didn't involve spanking. My father doled out lectures and extra chores. Our windows always sparkled, and I can remember my brothers twice spending the summer painting the house. I ironed. I loathed it.
It is possible that your child is thriving despite spanking, not because of it.
Spanking is unnecessary and ineffective.
However, imo, spanking and other punishments tend to make children dependent on external controls rather than teaching them how to be self-disciplined. Note that using positive discipline requires a lot more work, but in the end, I think the results are worth the effort.
Spanking in general creates three kinds of reactions in children. How much of each it creates
will depend on the personality of your child.
It may produce a passive and obedient person who obeys all authority without regard to any
internal moral and ethical standard.
It may produce a rebel without a cause who disobeys all authority because s/he hates to be
controlled and will not give in to it.
It may produce a person who believes that anything goes as long as s/he doesn't get caught.
This is almost EXACTLY what I tell parents in real life who ask for my opinion on spanking!! Almost word for word.
I just can't understand why some parents think it's ok to hit their kids when there are so many better ways to teach your children discipline and proper behavior
Why risk that they become one of the examples nana053 mentioned??
I have asked this for years and the ONLY answer I can come up with: LAZINESS! (Strongly correlated with ignorance)
I am not reading through this whole thread because I know how these go. Just because you hit a child doesn't mean they will listen...as you are seeing in your friend's son. Also, most disrespectful kids you see who aren't spanked aren't given ANY discipline (which does not mean punishment...it means to guide). Those kids belong to permissive parents...the ones who never say no, who don't set boundaries, etc.
Other parents like my husband and I are positive parents. We believe in setting boundaries, saying no when appropriate, expect our children to be well rounded...good students, play an instrument or sport or both, have manners, do chores, etc.
Yes, all children are different and what works for one doesn't necessarily work for the other. That's why you truly have to learn how to be a positive parent and sometimes you have to think outside the box or do things differently for different children. With 3 of our children, positive reinforcement is all they need...extra time staying up, a few dollars here and there, game time, etc. With our other son, he is much more headstrong. He has had things taken away when acceptable. We talk about why we make certain choices. We talk about consequences. We talk about how to make decisions and how to be strong in the face of peer pressure because we know we aren't always going to be with them. We are trying to instill knowledge that will help them all through life...not just to not jump off the furniture because mom is looking and we know we'll get our butt spanked if she catches us. I want to be that little voice in their heads that when some friends decided to ride their bikes out of our development and through town, our headstrong son knew we'd never approve so he had the courage to make the right decision and walk away and come home. He could have gone. I may not have ever found out. But he thought it through...the consequences of his choices, the risks, etc. I was very proud of him and made a big deal about it.
As positive parents we try to have our children earn rewards vs. receive negative consequences. For example, you earn 10 minutes of game time for emptying the dishwasher (plus whatever else you set each chore to be worth) vs. you can't play because you didn't do your chores. We try to acknowledge our children's feelings so they feel understood, but this is still the way things are. You start by getting eye level and saying something like "I understand you are sad about leaving the park. I had fun playing with you as well. It's time to go home and make dinner now though. We will come back on Friday." In the meantime you have begun walking back to your car while talking to your child about all of the fun he had, what his favorite thing was, what he's going to do first when you come back, what he can do to help with dinner, etc. etc. You praise whenever you can. When my son came back when his friends left the development, I praised him like crazy. I told him I knew that he really wanted to go and that I understood it was probably hard for him to decide to stay behind and go home, but how proud I was of him for making a good choice. We talked about safety and how things like that increased my trust in him. That Monday at school, he found out one of the other boys' moms showed up and saw him and caused quite the scene plus punished him for most of the summer. He was especially proud of making the choice he did.
Anybody who continues to hit, does so because they refuse to learn peaceful parenting techniques. If you think you tried it and it didn't work and in reality, you tried to do it on your own, that isn't enough. You have to learn the techniques or at least the basics about it. Sites on Facebook like Positive Parenting Solutions, Positive Parenting: Toddlers and Beyond, Peaceful Parenting, and even Dr. Momma.org are all good sites.
Here's a couple of other thoughts.
1) If you hit your child out of frustration, you are getting upset with your child for not controlling himself when you couldn't control YOURSELF and YOU are supposed to be the adult!
2) Young children (infants, toddlers...) learn through exploring. If your toddler just got into a roll of tape, most parents' first reaction is to snatch it out of the toddlers hands, maybe smack their hands, or yell at them. Why? It's the parents' fault the toddler got into the tape!! A better choice would be to tear off the strand they pulled out and let them touch it...acknowledge how interesting this must be...how it's sticky on one side and smooth on the other for example. Then put the tape up where they can't reach it.
Just like everything else in life: some turned out good, some didn't. Most kids seem to thrive in spite of their parenting. Your arguement is akin to the old "I never wore a seatbelt and I turned out ok" Well, yes, but what about all the folks who didn't?? Or "smoking is fine--everybody does it!"
Aren't we supposed to grow and mature with each generation and learn from the mistakes of those who came before us?
You're assuming mistakes, where I'm seeing none. I'm not talking about my life. Or your life. Or any specific individual's life. That's why I didn't specify anyone. I'm talking about the entire era (which is why I specified the entire era).
An entire era's worth of people - and their ancestors - and THEIR ancestors - were raised in homes where spanking was COMMON. And with some exceptions - an entire era's worth of people - and their ancestors - and THEIR ancestors - grew up, became contributing adults, did NOT become psychopaths, did NOT kill kittens, did NOT beat babies, did NOT blow up bridges, did NOT become dictators of their countries, did NOT end up in jail, or assassinated, or suicided.
Spanking did not ruin the lives of most kids who were spanked, in our parents' era, in our grandparents' era, in THEIR grandparents' era, and so on and so forth.
Nowhere am I saying that people SHOULD spank their kids. I'm saying that it's not nearly as big an issue as people have created it to be. There are kids who don't respond well to "because I'm the mommy" or "well let's see what happens when you cross the street, dear." or "in our house, we share our toys with guests."
Some kids will say "I don't care if you're the mommy. I'm the kid, and I want my popsicle NOW." and some kids will not waste a moment's time listening to mommy explain about danger in crossing the street, because their limited minds are fixed on getting to the other side, until they are abruptly distracted by something that stops them (such as a spanking). And some kids will not say anything when mommy demands that we share, and instead, will kick the guest, hoping they'll leave, because they don't WANT to share with guests. ANd in their limited child minds, no guests = no need to share.
Good luck sending some kids into time out, or the naughty step. Some kids will be clever enough to think "hm - no one is pushing me down on this stair forcing me to not get up. I guess that means I can get up." and they'll get up and do whatever they want. You can bring them back to the step, and they'll just get up again. If you're trying to make dinner, they might do it on purpose just to mess up your routine. If you're trying to get ready to leave the house, they might do it just to make you stay home.
They are controlling you, even as you are under the false assumption that you are controlling them. They are punishing you, because you didn't have the spine enough to punish them with anything that means anything to them. Take away my toys? Heh. I have others, and I have books, and I have my own imagination, and I have other mischief I can come up with. I don't need my Barbie, if I'm a natural-born troublemaker. You and what army are going to force a kid to sit on a step, or pay attention to you when you're explaining why we look both ways when crossing the street?
On the other hand, a quick smack on the backside will get their attention right that very second. It doesn't even have to hurt, or be accompanied with yelling. It just has to be quick, abrupt, and sharp enough for them to notice that it's happening. They'll learn: crossing the street without looking first = bad idea. They'll learn: pulling the display down at the supermarket = bad idea. They'll learn: throwing a temper tantrum because cousin Jonny wants to play with your toys = bad idea.
With the naughty step, some of these kids will learn Jonny wants to play with toys = get off the step, kick Jonny and he'll leave and then I don't have to share.
Taking the toys away will mean: I now have lots of time to come up with other ways of pissing off mom.
I never hit my children. They turned out remarkably well-behaved. They also have not been taught that hitting children is an option. Imagine that?
Not only is hitting (or, spanking, if you're one of those who demands that we not call it hitting, even though it is) counter-productive (as backed up by study after study - yes, I know, the pro-hitting crowd has a lot of crossover with the we-don't-like-empirical-scientific-evidence crowd), it's lazy - in most cases, it's not about discipline for the child but emotional venting for the parent.
You're assuming mistakes, where I'm seeing none. I'm not talking about my life. Or your life. Or any specific individual's life. That's why I didn't specify anyone. I'm talking about the entire era (which is why I specified the entire era).
An entire era's worth of people - and their ancestors - and THEIR ancestors - were raised in homes where spanking was COMMON. And with some exceptions - an entire era's worth of people - and their ancestors - and THEIR ancestors - grew up, became contributing adults, did NOT become psychopaths, did NOT kill kittens, did NOT beat babies, did NOT blow up bridges, did NOT become dictators of their countries, did NOT end up in jail, or assassinated, or suicided.
Spanking did not ruin the lives of most kids who were spanked, in our parents' era, in our grandparents' era, in THEIR grandparents' era, and so on and so forth.
And how did you know that it didn't? Just because someone does not tell you something bothered them than that doesn't mean it didn't. I will point this one out to you. We have the highest murder rate and rates of violence of all modern nations.
Nowhere am I saying that people SHOULD spank their kids. I'm saying that it's not nearly as big an issue as people have created it to be. There are kids who don't respond well to "because I'm the mommy" or "well let's see what happens when you cross the street, dear." or "in our house, we share our toys with guests."
Some kids will say "I don't care if you're the mommy. I'm the kid, and I want my popsicle NOW." and some kids will not waste a moment's time listening to mommy explain about danger in crossing the street, because their limited minds are fixed on getting to the other side, until they are abruptly distracted by something that stops them (such as a spanking). And some kids will not say anything when mommy demands that we share, and instead, will kick the guest, hoping they'll leave, because they don't WANT to share with guests. ANd in their limited child minds, no guests = no need to share.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnonChick
Good luck sending some kids into time out, or the naughty step. Some kids will be clever enough to think "hm - no one is pushing me down on this stair forcing me to not get up. I guess that means I can get up." and they'll get up and do whatever they want. You can bring them back to the step, and they'll just get up again. If you're trying to make dinner, they might do it on purpose just to mess up your routine. If you're trying to get ready to leave the house, they might do it just to make you stay home.
You do realize that parents are aware of this and adjust their discipline to match. Sure your kid can ignore you. The same child can refuse to bend over your knee for a spanking as well. Your logic is faulty.
They are controlling you, even as you are under the false assumption that you are controlling them. They are punishing you, because you didn't have the spine enough to punish them with anything that means anything to them. Take away my toys? Heh. I have others, and I have books, and I have my own imagination, and I have other mischief I can come up with. I don't need my Barbie, if I'm a natural-born troublemaker. You and what army are going to force a kid to sit on a step, or pay attention to you when you're explaining why we look both ways when crossing the street?
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnonChick
On the other hand, a quick smack on the backside will get their attention right that very second. It doesn't even have to hurt, or be accompanied with yelling. It just has to be quick, abrupt, and sharp enough for them to notice that it's happening. They'll learn: crossing the street without looking first = bad idea. They'll learn: pulling the display down at the supermarket = bad idea. They'll learn: throwing a temper tantrum because cousin Jonny wants to play with your toys = bad idea.
With the naughty step, some of these kids will learn Jonny wants to play with toys = get off the step, kick Jonny and he'll leave and then I don't have to share.
Taking the toys away will mean: I now have lots of time to come up with other ways of pissing off mom.
Yes, and I have seen that same child act up 2 minutes later in the store. It's not the end all be all that pro spankers act like it is. A child might know they aren't supposed to do it but they don't understand why. This is why they will continue doing it over and over and over again. It's not *contrary to the opinions of people who know nothing of child development* to test you or push your limits. It's simply because their brain is not developed enough to make that connection.
It's amazing that our parents and grandparents lived in a society of individuals that didn't all end up in psych wards or jail - considering that spanking was a perfectly acceptable method of discipline for most of them, then. If it's THAT bad - why are there SO many well-adjusted seniors? Spanking, using a willow switch, slapping, a belt, these were all -common- methods of discipline prior to Dr. Spock, and in fact even the bible recommends it, so this isn't a new thing that only happened in the USA.
It was common, AND it is common to find people who grew up in the era of this common discipline method, who turned out well-adjusted, contributing members of society. The ones who became psychos or other "undesireables" of society were the exception, not the rule. And yet, corporal punishment was the rule, not the exception.
How do all these studies explain that?
Having a job and paying taxes, i.e., "contributing," does not mean someone is "well adjusted." My grandmother was an insurance agent and worked in an office for 20 years, and she also hit my father with a wooden spoon so hard it broke. My dad had a rage problem when I was younger. I was spanked a lot and thrown against a wall when I was 14. My mother slapped me when I was mouthy and spanked me with objects. When I was 17 or so I said something to her, whereupon she pushed me to the floor and throttled me with both hands. She was horrified afterward and never touched me again.
I've heard every excuse on this board. It's OK to hit, just not that hard. My parents didn't know how to hit correctly. Slapping and spanking is not really hitting. It would be OK to hit my children if someone just taught me how to do it right.
My parents have money and pay their taxes, as do my grandparents. So do I. We "contribute." That doesn't make anybody "well adjusted." It's just passing on the cycle of rage to the next generation.
One of my friends messages me on facebook saying her husband hit their kid. I am thinking like punched or slapped in the face. No, she sends a pic of his butt which is red. I was like so and?
Her kid is 2 or 3 years old. Ive been around her and her kid and he seems to lack zero discipline. Doesnt obey, throws temper tantrums, etc.
I tried to explain to her spanking is needed at an early age to instill discipline. Kids learn what is acceptable behavior and consequences for misbehaving.
She replies spanking is unjust. I am sitting their dumbfounded.
Scolding generally does not work, especially with very young kids.
At 2 or 3 yrs old that's all they understand. They are old enough to connect the painful (but harmless) punishment with the deed that provoked it, but too young to understand English.
Never ever assume that just because a toddler can talk, he knows what you or he is saying. They really don't. Mynah birds comes to mind.
Having a job and paying taxes, i.e., "contributing," does not mean someone is "well adjusted." My grandmother was an insurance agent and worked in an office for 20 years, and she also hit my father with a wooden spoon so hard it broke. My dad had a rage problem when I was younger. I was spanked a lot and thrown against a wall when I was 14. My mother slapped me when I was mouthy and spanked me with objects. When I was 17 or so I said something to her, whereupon she pushed me to the floor and throttled me with both hands. She was horrified afterward and never touched me again.
I've heard every excuse on this board. It's OK to hit, just not that hard. My parents didn't know how to hit correctly. Slapping and spanking is not really hitting. It would be OK to hit my children if someone just taught me how to do it right.
My parents have money and pay their taxes, as do my grandparents. So do I. We "contribute." That doesn't make anybody "well adjusted." It's just passing on the cycle of rage to the next generation.
This.
My parents spanked me. They are intelligent educated people, but I think they didn't know any better. They were both "spanked" with wooden spoons and switches. When I was a teen it escalated to slapping and worse. I've broken the cycle. I learned to behave, I guess, but I never respected their discipline methods, or them as a teen. On the outside we are a fairly functional family, but we have our share of issues individually and as a group. Just ask my therapist.
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