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So you want to shower with your 14 year old child...daughter...son....and you don't want that to make you an abuser. Sorry, it does. It is breaking a boundary.
A boundary that exists in your head. You have not actually established the existence of such a boundary. Peoples mileage difference. I have no interest in pushing you or anyone else over your boundaries. But similarly I have no interest in judging others as "wrong" for having differing boundaries to mine - in the way you appear to.
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Originally Posted by HighFlyingBird
Regardless if you believe that boundary is there or not, doesn't matter. I am here to tell you it exists. Breaking it is sexual abuse.
Would that assertion were the mother of fact. Alas in this reality it is not - and you merely declaring it to be so does not make it so. I still await substantiation for the assertion. Abuse makes you an abuser. Nudity does not. I wonder at what point in our history our species became so horrified hateful and scared of the human body.
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Originally Posted by CraigCreek
Monumentus, I do not appreciate your condescension and assumptions about my reading/comprehension skills in regard to your previous posts.
I generally respond in the tone people talk to me in - and if you come at me with the "Did you miss the part" condescension then you will get the same in return. If it tastes bitter to you - then rethink serving it up yourself.
I also do not appreciate people accusing me of missing something I addressed DIRECTLY. So you will get similar tone for this too. Again if you do not like it - check first where the blame actually lay. I made no comment about your reading or comprehension skills - but if you ask me if I missed something I actually commented directly on - then I can only either repeat myself - or request you re-read the bits you clearly missed or failed to understand.
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Originally Posted by CraigCreek
HighFlyingBird has addressed your conflation of two different arguments
And I have addressed the errors in his appraisal of it. And the conversation goes on. But thank you for the side line commentary all the same.
A boundary that exists in your head. You have not actually established the existence of such a boundary. Peoples mileage difference. I have no interest in pushing you or anyone else over your boundaries. But similarly I have no interest in judging others as "wrong" for having differing boundaries to mine - in the way you appear to.
Would that assertion were the mother of fact. Alas in this reality it is not - and you merely declaring it to be so does not make it so. I still await substantiation for the assertion. Abuse makes you an abuser. Nudity does not.
Brain washing a child to think showering with her father at age 14 is ok is absolutely covert sexual abuse. What you really need to do is research abuse, grooming, covert abuse. You might be a champion for being naked, but you know very little about covert abuse in dysfunctional families. I happen to be an expert on the subject....but I don't feel the need to make this into a lesson on sexual abuse.
No - but you clearly missed the part where I addressed that. As I said to AnywhereElse it might help if you re-read (or just read as the case may be) and focus on where I differentiated between my comments about this case - the the thread title. If it helps I used the word "context" a lot - so search for those and focus on those paragraphs.
If you still need any help understanding my ACTUAL position following that exercise - just ask - and I will be more than happy to help you out.
Then don't. I never once asked you to. But the question of the OP is not "Do you want to do it" but "Is it ok to do it". I am answering the latter. You keep replying to me with comments related to the former. You are talking past me - for whatever reason.
YOU do not want to do it - but that does not make it wrong. At all. And to be honest that is likely one of the biggest failings of our species. The idea that "That is not for me" equates to "That is wrong".
Note also how I never called anyone a prude or even suggested anything of the sort. You did. It goes BOTH ways. I see nothing at all wrong - in general - with people showering together. But I also see NOTHING wrong with not wanting to either. I am not more or less against people doing it - as people not doing it or not wanting to. I am _only_ against the idea that people not wanting to do it - means there is something wrong with people who do.
You implying that people were prudes. This is not five year old child , it is physical healthy teenager. They can bathe on their own. I do think it is wrong and the courts did too . Buddy, you started with me and other posters.
Brain washing a child to think showering with her father at age 14 is ok is absolutely covert sexual abuse.
In your mind perhaps. But since you - nor anyone else - has established that there is anything wrong with it in the first place - then the brainwashing also exists solely in your mind. You brain washing comment comes from the assumption there is something wrong with it in the first place - and it is that very assumption I am questioning as mere assertion in the first place.
So rather than actually replying to my points or position - you are going beyond by points and position - assuming the opposite of them by assertion - and returning from that angle. Which essentially leaves us talking past each other about different things as I am talking about "Is X actually wrong" while you are coming from "assuming X is wrong then....". And there is no linguistic way to meet between us if that continues.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HighFlyingBird
What you really need to do is research abuse, grooming, covert abuse.
What you really need to do is not assume I have not and your assumptions about what I know about - or no little about - are just that. Assumptions. And quite in error. Declaring yourself an expert on it does not make your assertions true - they remain assertions.
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Originally Posted by HighFlyingBird
And there is a huuuuuge difference between being horrified by the human body and being a modest person. insert eye roll here
And there is a huge difference between modesty and abuse. So roll your eyes any direction you like - it adds nothing to anything.
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Originally Posted by Sommie789
You implying that people were prudes.
No - I am doing no such thing. As I say - I have no issue of any kind with anyone who does not want to do such things - or feels uncomfortable doing such things. To them I merely say - do not do them.
But I would always question the concept that someone not wanting to do something is a valid pedestal from which to judge others for doing them. The question is "Is there anything wrong with it" and this is not answered by "Well I do not want to do it".
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Originally Posted by Sommie789
They can bathe on their own.
I never questioned their capability to do so anywhere. But their capability to do so does not mean NOT doing so is wrong. So I am not sure there is any relevance to your point here?
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Originally Posted by Sommie789
I do think it is wrong and the courts did too .
Yes - for contextual reasons. You are commenting on this particular case. And I have not disagreed with anything you have said in this particular case. Anywhere. Ever. But as I said I am differentiating between this case - and the OPs question IN GENERAL.
I have no issue at all with the courts decision, or your opinion, of this case.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sommie789
Buddy, you started with me and other posters.
Not even sure what this is meant to mean here, sorry. I am exploring the question of the OP with the posters here. Your tone here implies you take some issue with that. I can not imagine why.
I didn't read the article. But even without the allegations of rape. It is 100% inappropriate for a grown man to shower with a post-pubescent teenager in pretty much every circumstance. Now if it is the apocalypse and there is water rationing, then it might be OK. But not in any normal situation here.
A public bath house is nothing like a shower. A public bath house is more akin to a pool or sauna. Different scenario altogether. Now I do not necessarily have a problem, if in a problem where nudity is "OK" if everyone is walking around naked or a whole family goes to the nude beach. But there are certain privacy implications in showers used for cleansing.
There is not an issue if this was that 2 second shower you take after a trip to the pool or beach.
My point that people are missing is in america, yes totally wrong and strange. But in Japan, it wouldn't be a stretch if a family showered together in their home because they do it in a bath house. Yes they are two different things. And obviously whatever happened in the article is 100% wrong. But that does not mean it is 100% wrong in every single case. It might be strange to us, but not necessarily wrong in other cultures if it were to happen. Even so it's probably still rare if it happened, but it wouldn't be seen as something perverted in say, Japan and in other cultures if it actually were to happen.
IMO, the op makes it clear in his answer to the link he posted that the discussion IS about the father, mother and daughter in his link.
The father sexually abused his niece, the mother seemingly ignored the danger of him showering with the 14 year old daughter. I think the girl had been put up to doing that for a long time as she seemed to be protecting the father in her statements to the judge. Children do seem to protect the abuser out of fear.
My point that people are missing is in america, yes totally wrong and strange. But in Japan, it wouldn't be a stretch if a family showered together in their home because they do it in a bath house. Yes they are two different things. And obviously whatever happened in the article is 100% wrong. But that does not mean it is 100% wrong in every single case. It might be strange to us, but not necessarily wrong in other cultures if it were to happen. Even so it's probably still rare if it happened, but it wouldn't be seen as something perverted in say, Japan and in other cultures if it actually were to happen.
^ Indeed - I fell much comes down to cultural differences here. Many many people in this culture do not do it - and that is so much the "norm" that the knee jerk reaction we see on the thread is that there simply something wrong with doing it at all.
Yet when we actually try to unpack that and explore it we find people getting quite emotive - and defensive - but not actually laying out an argument for why it is "wrong" at all. And I contest that perhaps this is because no such argument exists. There _is_ nothing wrong with it. It is just so alien and uncommon to those in our culture here - that we merely assume there must be something amiss with it. And being compelled to actually unpack and explore the things we merely take for granted culturally is something that can get people quite haughty. But I find it a healthy and stimulating thing to do myself - and can but recommend it for others.
Then "most of you" should not do so. I am not aware of a single part of my post suggesting you should do so. But I am not sure if the "most" is as big as you might pretend. In fact "most" children seem to not care - but it is our culture of horror at the human form that instils in them this fear of nudity.
But read the thread title again. The question is "Is it wrong to do it" - not "do most people want to do it or not do it?". Declaring that "most of you" do not want to do it does not actually reply to a _single thing_ I have written on the thread so far therefore.
Any particular reasons why - or is this more of the same "Just because" posts? I have genuinely scoured the thread from a single argument against it - but not one exists so far.
Actually I am quite open to debate on many issues and have changed my mind on many things due to it. If you have nothing to offer to support your position - that is fine - but that is a comment about you not me. So turning it on me with the "There is no point telling you this stuff" rhetoric is just deflectionary.
I see nothing wrong with nudity - and no one on the whole thread has levelled an argument against nudity. And I see nothing wrong with people being nude together - and no one on the whole thread has levelled an argument against that either.
Nice of you to summarise my posts and distil them into the exact opposite of what I ACTUALLY SAID. Try reading my posts again (or at all) - focusing especially heavily on the parts of them where I used the word "context".
If you still need any help understanding my ACTUAL position following that exercise - just ask - and I will be more than happy to help you out.
I see - so - so desperate are you to comment on this one particular situation - you have to introduce "probably" into it and simply add things you do not know to be true to the scenario.
Rich coming from the person who clearly did not read my posts before replying to them. Try reading my posts again as I said - and tell the difference between where I commented on the article itself - and where I commented on the GENERAL question asked by the OP in the OP and in the thread title.
If you still need any help understanding my ACTUAL position following that exercise - just ask - and I will be more than happy to help you out.
Then it must please you to find that I never said they were the same thing. I linked the two in a single argument - but never once said they are the same thing.
Do we know she was not? Let us not imagine information here we do not actually have.
No one is asking you to be. If you are not comfortable with such a thing - do not do it. The OPs question is however if there is anything wrong with other people doing it. Assuming THEY are not uncomfortable with it then I see no reason why not. If one or both of them is - then of course they should not be doing it or leading the other into doing it.
Let us make the assumption that two people engaging in this are both comfortable with it - upon the basis for that assumption how can we NOW answer the title of the OP "Is it okay for a 14 year old girl to take showers with her father?" in a way that is not just "Yes just because" or "No just because".
You seem to be responding only to the post title. Typically people respond to the actual post and link. You aren't going to convince any sane person that this is OK.
Such an original argument. "American's are such ________, look at how great it is in Japan, UK, etc"
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