Do you think it is wrong for a restaurant customer to complain to a server about a screaming child? (lawyers, parent)
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I don't agree with the theme which seems to be developing that your applause was passive-aggressive or inappropriate in any way. It seems to me that you were simply offering support to a person in a difficult situation in as polite and non-confrontational a way as possible. Were you to stand up and say something that may have come across as a bit too aggressive (may have seemed as if you were tag-teaming the mother or something). This made it clear that you politely supported the request to maintain the peace of a public space, without being angry or rude about it.
I think there is some leeway with babies - but this was NOT a baby. This was a 2 or 3 year old who was WELL beyond the "well what can we do???" age. A 2+ year old is more than capable of understanding and being required to carry through with simple and direct instructions - particularly firmly given instructions from a no-nonsense parent. This wasn't even a McDonalds (or something similar) where childish antics may have been more forgivable. I was one of four siblings (the youngest is now in her early 20s). We were raised in a very supportive, loving, structured, affluent, and family-oriented, household. Much was expected of us - particularly academically. We were not required to be saints in public but we were absolutely required to be well-behaved, respectful, and courteous of other (especially adults). We would never have been allowed to carry on in the above manner described. And I can say without question...had either of my parents looked at any one of us while we were acting like that (not that we would have had the audacity to - it never even got that far - we knew it wouldn't be tolerated), the behavior would have instantly ceased.
When you go out in public, or you are in a private sector institution open to the public - you do not hold an "all-inclusive" right to act however you may please in that location. You have a LICENSE to be on the premises which has certain underlying "agreements" inherent in the granting of that license. The first is that you will act in a reasonable manner, part of which includes the obligation to ensure that nothing you are doing is disturbing the peace and reasonable enjoyment of the other patrons/customers/members of the public. This includes refraining from behavior or activities which would negatively impact the reasonable enjoyment of those other customers - anything from a screaming baby (or a screaming person in general, there is no difference), to a loudly ringing cell phone, to profane language, excessively loud noise of any kind, playing any kind of music from a sound system, speaking in a way which is disturbing or offensive (among yourselves or to other people, including staff), dressing inappropriately, bringing pets, etc. Someone above specifically mentioned women laughing too loudly or men being "bawdy" - yes, absolutely, that behavior is not permitted either, and customers can be asked to cease or leave. Basically, ask yourself if what you are doing is negatively impacting anyone else's experience (within reasonableness, obviously). Remember - you are in a place of business. You absolutely under no circumstances have the right to do anything which affects that business right to carry on trade, or which has a negative impact on their ability to do so. Anything which might dissuade other patrons (or potential patrons) from spending money there, or from spending MORE money there (anything to do with their commercial trade basically) should be seen as unacceptable. The idea that just because you have a baby you should somehow be excused from all of this and should be allowed to impact business owners and affect their profits (and for new businesses or struggling businesses, these might not be high or even adequate, we have no way of knowing) is absolutely ludicrous and utterly self centered. Whether you have a baby or not - you do not get to disrupt the conduction of trade. And the idea that because you are spending money in a place, you should be allowed some kind of increased license (beyond the typical inherent license) to interrupt the experience of OTHER customers is just not an acceptable or persuasive argument in any way. It's not an attack on parents. The same rules apply to everyone. Anyone with a screaming baby (just like anyone else making an unacceptable amount of noise) has violated the implied terms of their custom/presence, and can reasonably be asked to leave. You are disturbing people, whether it is intentional or not. Taking advantage of the disposition of polite individuals who may not feel brave enough to tell you that you are disturbing them just makes YOU the jerk. Get a baby-sitter, stay home, or go somewhere no one minds kids screaming (wherever that might be), until your children are old enough and/or well behaved enough to behave themselves through a meal/experience. The better parenting job you do, the sooner you can bring your child to all the places you would like to. All the better for you. But you can't just shove the poor results of your poor parenting skills onto the poor public. These generally accepted rules apply to everyone, without exception.
Another long thread. Well, one time on a freezing cold winter night we waited outdoors in line to get into a nice restaurant. This town did have more than its share of entitled type people--and I don't live there anymore.
The restaurant was very busy but we were finally seated even though we had to take a booth rather than a table. After I had ordered my meal and was just sitting there, the young kid in the booth behind me started either pounding or slamming himself against the back of the booth. This, of course, impacted me as my back was against my side of the booth.
The parents just kept talking to each other and did nothing.
When my meal arrived, the kid stood up in the his seat, turned around and stood there looking over the top of the booth, staring down over my shoulder. The parents still did nothing at all. If the restaurant hadn't been so busy that night I would have mentioned this to someone. Thank goodness, about half way through my meal, they were done and they left, still laughing and talking, totally oblivious.
This is another example of bad parenting where the parents probably think their child can do no wrong. It doesn't occur to them that other people have looked forward to a quiet dinner in a nice setting with good food and that they need to teach their kid some manners. It's the same kind of parent who is afraid to say the word "no" to their child.
Another long thread. Well, one time on a freezing cold winter night we waited outdoors in line to get into a nice restaurant. This town did have more than its share of entitled type people--and I don't live there anymore.
The restaurant was very busy but we were finally seated even though we had to take a booth rather than a table. After I had ordered my meal and was just sitting there, the young kid in the booth behind me started either pounding or slamming himself against the back of the booth. This, of course, impacted me as my back was against my side of the booth.
The parents just kept talking to each other and did nothing.
When my meal arrived, the kid stood up in the his seat, turned around and stood there looking over the top of the booth, staring down over my shoulder. The parents still did nothing at all. If the restaurant hadn't been so busy that night I would have mentioned this to someone. Thank goodness, about half way through my meal, they were done and they left, still laughing and talking, totally oblivious.
This is another example of bad parenting where the parents probably think their child can do no wrong. It doesn't occur to them that other people have looked forward to a quiet dinner in a nice setting with good food and that they need to teach their kid some manners. It's the same kind of parent who is afraid to say the word "no" to their child.
I had a friend who let her kids do this sort of thing. She thought it was cute. I stopped going anywhere with her.
Another long thread. Well, one time on a freezing cold winter night we waited outdoors in line to get into a nice restaurant. This town did have more than its share of entitled type people--and I don't live there anymore.
The restaurant was very busy but we were finally seated even though we had to take a booth rather than a table. After I had ordered my meal and was just sitting there, the young kid in the booth behind me started either pounding or slamming himself against the back of the booth. This, of course, impacted me as my back was against my side of the booth.
The parents just kept talking to each other and did nothing.
When my meal arrived, the kid stood up in the his seat, turned around and stood there looking over the top of the booth, staring down over my shoulder. The parents still did nothing at all. If the restaurant hadn't been so busy that night I would have mentioned this to someone. Thank goodness, about half way through my meal, they were done and they left, still laughing and talking, totally oblivious.
This is another example of bad parenting where the parents probably think their child can do no wrong. It doesn't occur to them that other people have looked forward to a quiet dinner in a nice setting with good food and that they need to teach their kid some manners. It's the same kind of parent who is afraid to say the word "no" to their child.
I find that extremely annoying. I am happy to wave and smile once or twice at a small child and I'll play peek-a-boo with two or three "peeks," but then I'm done. My kids are long past that stage and I have no desire to revisit it with some random kid in a restaurant, though I will take that over screaming and tantrumming. I have said to a small child, "okay, time to turn around now!" with a smile before. That generally clues in the parents that someone isn't finding their kid as charming as they do. If they're paying attention, that is...
Wow, just wow. I've actually never "popped out some children." Do you actually condone beating a two year old having a temper tantrum? Yikes. I don't think trying to soothe a young one with kind words having a melt down in public is "catering" to them. I think yelling at them and beating them into being frightened of you is not my definition of good parenting either.
Do I think he should have beaten me with a belt long enough to leave bruises? Probably not. But it taught me to behave - and he never (and I mean NEVER) had to lay another hand on me again and I was never frightened of him, but I remembered that if I acted up, there WOULD be consequences - so I didn't.
I think trying to reason with children and talk to them does NOT work. I've seen it in action many times in public and the kid just keeps screaming. This whole "spanking is barbaric and just teaches children to be scared or violent" is complete BS.
Quote:
Originally Posted by animalcrazy
I firmly believe that it takes a village to raise a child and that we should help one another. I personally enjoyed having the little one come to our table. He was adorable and his parents were very nice as well.
Obviously you enjoy children in general. I don't have children, nor do want them, so why should I have to help someone parent the children THEY decided to have?
Quote:
Originally Posted by animalcrazy
"It's no wonder the vast majority of them are brats with no respect for anyone." OMG, what happened to you to make you so cynical? No really. I wish there was some way I could help you. I have many teenagers and kids in my life. Are they fallible? No more then you or I, but they're all nice kids. I suggest you may be a tad wrong with that entitled mentality that the world should conform to your need for quiet in PUBLIC places. Maybe you're the one that should stay home. I'll go to the restaurants and enjoy the energy the young ones bring. They make me and since no one and nothing is perfect you have to adjust and take the good with the bad.
Yes, I am cynical and it's based on what I've seen. In my teen years I LOVED children. In fact, I was the one that the smaller children loved to be around. I almost raised more than one child who lived on our block. However, that was before all the changes in parenting - by that I mean the lack thereof. Do I dislike well-behaved children? No, and I will actually go compliment the parents on their success, but the amount of times that I've seen well-behaved children has dwindled significantly.
^^^^^ it has indeed "dwindled" along with common sense and courtesy.
My 4 were taught self control. Their teachers/other parents loved them for this.
I recall one neighbor telling me she loved when Arden came over (age 5 at the time) because she was the only playmate Baylee had who "never hits Baylee and who cleans up the toys" This was an affluent section wherein most Mothers stayed home. These girls are still friends years later.
I was astonished that not hitting one's playmate and cleaning up when done playing, was considered commentworthy. In my household that was just normal expected behavior. Mine were not permitted to raise voice in the house either; shouting and rowdy games were for the backyard, front yard or park.
All 4 grew up with good organizational skills and strong sense of responsibility.
I would have been mortified had they ever acted up in public.
Interestingly when their poorly behaved pals (that I had witnessed being "bad" when their mothers were around) hung out at MY house, they behaved well.
Their pals always wanted to come over. Perhaps they LIKED the structure and higher expectations?
I dont condone beating a child but I also don't believe in it takes a village to raise my kids either. They were my responsibility and my job to teach them manners. I would take them out and home when they act out. It is never ok to let a child wander to strangers tables even if that is ok with them. You start teaching children manners at home. We taught them to sit at the table and didn't let them get up and run around at home so they didn't do it in a restaurant. Also it is not safe, you have servers carrying hot plates. Try being a server trying to dodge kids with a hot platter.
In my younger years the whole neighborhood raised you. If you did something wrong the neighbors would be on the phone to your mother. If you see a child in harms way you would do your best to help wouldn't you? There are times when your eyes just aren't enough, like the time I saw a toddler in front of me almost fall down from some stairs and I stopped it. Hence my definition of it takes a village to raise a child. Teaching a two year old not to go up to strangers tables in a restaurant is vastly different from teaching a five year old. In a perfect world no child would cry in public, run away from a parent in a restaurant, and would be perfect angels everywhere. Since we don't live in a perfect world with robot children that automatically obey we must help each other out from time to time and learn to be tolerant during moments that people have temporarily lost control. Public places means sharing public spaces with all sorts of situations that need to be handled with respect for everyone, not just people who want perfection and quiet from unpredictable children. I honestly have never wanted to walk out of a restaurant because of a crying child, nor have I ever been to one with a child crying for more then a few minutes. Yes it is dangerous for a small child to be tripped over by a server, and like I said, in a perfect world children wouldn't slip away. It's amazing to me that your children never slipped away from you and kudos for being so considerate. However, this does happen to even the best of parents doesn't it. I think trying to be a good sport about being temporarily inconvenienced for 20 minutes out of your 24 hour day is not such a big deal, no matter how important you think you are. I think your perspective changes about these small inconveniences when life throws you a curve ball at you like being worried about a friend with Leukemia about to be placed on the bone marrow transplant list. Crying children in restaurants, meh, child's play.
Interestingly when their poorly behaved pals (that I had witnessed being "bad" when their mothers were around) hung out at MY house, they behaved well.
Their pals always wanted to come over. Perhaps they LIKED the structure and higher expectations?
My mother's friend had a child that was a terror. They let him do whatever he wanted and either bribed him with toys or tried to reason with him when he had a fit. My dad, as you can tell from my previous post, didn't subscribe to that theory. The kid punched my dad in the lip once and got a backhand to the face. Another time he spit at my dad and again got a backhand to the face. Do I think he should have backhanded him like that? No. But the funny thing is, the kid LOVED spending time with my dad. He always wanted to go play golf with him or fishing or even just to the store - and my dad said that when he took him along, he was a great kid. Never had a fit, never caused any trouble. To this day that boy (he's grown now though) loves my father to pieces.
So I agree with you completely.
Quote:
Originally Posted by animalcrazy
Public places means sharing public spaces with all sorts of situations that need to be handled with respect for everyone, not just people who want perfection and quiet from unpredictable children.
Again, NOBODY has said they want complete silence. And that respect needs to go both ways. Your child won't shut up, leave. Your child wants to have a fit in the store, leave. I was in a store one time and there was a child that screamed the whole way through it. How do I know? You could hear it across the friggin store. Why should everyone else have to pay for that lack of parenting?
Quote:
Originally Posted by animalcrazy
I honestly have never wanted to walk out of a restaurant because of a crying child, nor have I ever been to one with a child crying for more then a few minutes.
That is YOUR experience. There are plenty of others who have had to do this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by animalcrazy
Yes it is dangerous for a small child to be tripped over by a server, and like I said, in a perfect world children wouldn't slip away. It's amazing to me that your children never slipped away from you and kudos for being so considerate. However, this does happen to even the best of parents doesn't it.
This is not about parents who have an "oops" moment. It's about parents who just say "eff it, I don't want to bother with the kid, so let it run around and do whatever it wants."
Quote:
Originally Posted by animalcrazy
I think trying to be a good sport about being temporarily inconvenienced for 20 minutes out of your 24 hour day is not such a big deal, no matter how important you think you are.
Perhaps the parents of the children causing the issues should realize that they aren't any more important than the other patrons trying to have a nice meal.
The entire point of going out to eat is to enjoy the company of whomever I am with, not hold conversation's with a kid. It really isn't my responsibility to care for your child.
I guess a one minute kind exchange between strangers is too much to ask of you to take away from your conversation with your dinner partner? Okay, whatever. One size does not fit all. I sincerely hope that some day if you are in need of help from a stranger that you don't meet up with someone with that it's not my responsibility to help you mentality. It was far from a dumb idea for me to talk to that adorable shortie when he came to our table. I totally enjoyed seeing his little smiling face and so did my husband. Had he been in the way of the server holding a hot tray either my husband or I would have been there to keep them both out of harms way if their parents couldn't have been there in time. I think there needs to be more of that lets help each other out mentality vs it's all about me mentality in society don't you? Well maybe not judging from your retort. I just think the world would be a little better place without that mentality. You carry on as usual if it works for you. There's nothing wrong with that. I there will be willing to help out. It's just the way we're wired.
Again, NOBODY has said they want complete silence. And that respect needs to go both ways. Your child won't shut up, leave. Your child wants to have a fit in the store, leave. I was in a store one time and there was a child that screamed the whole way through it. How do I know? You could hear it across the friggin store. Why should everyone else have to pay for that lack of parenting?
They're bad parents because their kids are crying? I guess you could leave as well if you can't stand the noise? What if the parent of the crying child was already in line in the process of paying for something with a child in the middle of a melt down. Should that parent leave the store and everything in the cart to appease people that can't stand crying children?
That is YOUR experience. There are plenty of others who have had to do this.
What if there is another hungry child involved in the middle to trying to eat when their sibling has a melt down and there is only one parent to handle the situation? Should we be angry at that parent doing the best that they can under the circumstances?
This is not about parents who have an "oops" moment. It's about parents who just say "eff it, I don't want to bother with the kid, so let it run around and do whatever it wants."
How do you know that that's what's going through that parents mind? I'm sure it's existed when I was out in public, but I'm pretty oblivious to who's doing what and not focused on unruly children. It is what it is and only a small slice out of my day. You can't change ignorant people, you can only change the way you deal with them. Do you let them crawl under your skin or do you see it for what is is and not let it bother you? I choose the latter. Life is too short to worry about crying children for a few minutes out of my day. Those same parents have to deal with their kids way longer then I do. That's justice enough for me.
Perhaps the parents of the children causing the issues should realize that they aren't any more important than the other patrons trying to have a nice meal.
Yes I agree, but there are so many variables and situations that may exist that we can't see because after all we are inconvenienced aren't we. What if the children involved aren't with their parents? I have these three girls that spend the night with us every month. The two sisters have been with us since they were around 6 and 8. The youngest one was a nightmare, especially in restaurants. I can't discipline some one else's child and I had two other hungry kids with me. I did the best that I could under the circumstances. Yes I watched her like a hawk, Yes I told her more then once that she couldn't come because of her behavior and left her behind. Yes she finally learned to listen to me but it wasn't easy. She's a hard head. Did I inconvenience some of the other people around us? I'm sure and I apologized. Should I have left the restaurant after paying for the buffet with two other hungry kids in tow because one was misbehaving and disruptive? According to everyone who should never be inconvenienced at a public restaurant for even a minute that answer should be yes. According to me with two other starving kids that answer would be no. Sorry but suck it up for a couple of minutes. The bottom line is that we are only looking at one tiny slice of life and we truly don't know the motives or circumstances. We can only ass/u/me based on what our needs and tolerances are. What if those people at the table next to us were going to leave in 5 minutes after I arrived at the table with obnoxious kids? Should our needs be any less important then having to inconvenience someone for 5 minutes? Hungry kids are animals! LOL. It would have been another 40 minute drive to my house with them and 40 minutes for hungry kids that were innocent is a long time to suffer because of one unruly shortie. I don't think that there is one person on this thread that hasn't inconvenienced someone with an inconsiderate action rather intentional or not sometime in their lives now is there. These things happen and will always happen. You can either take the high road in these situations or not. Right now I would rather be in a restaurant full of screaming unruly children then I would being in that cramped closet sanding plaster and priming walls today. It's all about perspective and learning not to sweat the little things. I guess I've procrastinated long enough so I will wish you all a Happy New Year. So far mine sucks.
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Yikes. I don't think trying to soothe a young one with kind words having a melt down in public is "catering" to them. I think yelling at them and beating them into being frightened of you is not my definition of good parenting either.
and since no one and nothing is perfect you have to adjust and take the good with the bad.
Okay, whatever. One size does not fit all. I sincerely hope that some day if you are in need of help from a stranger that you don't meet up with someone with that it's not my responsibility to help you mentality. It was far from a dumb idea for me to talk to that adorable shortie when he came to our table. I totally enjoyed seeing his little smiling face and so did my husband. 
