origins of yes, m'am, and yes sir? (lawyers, teenagers, girls)

[darhe3425]

Does anyone have an origin? It did not originate in the south originally. Does anyone have knowledge of where it originated? by whom, where...?

[Sampaguita]

I googled the etymology of sir & ma'am & found this:

There is a definite constraint that forecloses on the use of the word Sir or sir as a knighthood title bestowed under Byzantine Tradition. At a minimum, that constraint rests in language.

Two purposes are served in the usage of the word Sir or sir: One is to convey respect and recognition to the person addressed. The other is for the word to be granted as a title of distinction in acknowledgment of that respect and recognition.

Various societies adopt words that are specific to their language, in order to achieve the same purpose. The Spanish, for example, use the word Don (from the Latin dominus that means master); whereas, the English use Sir or sir (rooted in the Latin senex that means aged or old, and from which the words senator, senior, senile are derived). Note that the Latin senex finds its origin in the Greek ένος—enos (which means aged, dated or year, and where, if the letter ε or e is omitted, the remaining νος—nos or νέος—neos means new) from which the Latin annus derives. Furthermore, the English word Sir or sir has its root in sire (a respectful form of address toward an elder) that is also rooted in senior, senex, and enos. Continuity is evident from English to Latin to Greek.

In both a contextual and a definitive sense, the word nearest to Sir or sir in Hellenistic Byzantine usage is Κύριος or κύριος (Kyrios or kyrios means Lord or lord as well as Master or master) and, for example, is found in Scripture in Mark 9:24. It signifies a person of authority and power. From it is derived the Latin curia of the Roman Church, and also the word church itself: Κυριακός Οίκος means the Lord’s House. There is a linguistic abbreviation of Kyrios or kyrios rendered as Κυρ- or κυρ- and as a prefix to the person’s name. Both the full and abbreviated forms are in great use in contemporary Greek. With a capital K it denotes very high esteem and respect for the person addressed. Yet, it does not suggest a grant of title. In more probability it may denote an assignment in high office. The lower case k application equates to the English language Mr. and thus is in very frequent use.

from: The etymology of 'Sir' - NEW BYZANTIUM (http://www.new-byzantium.org/Titles.htm - broken link)

sir
1297, title of honor of a knight or baronet (until 17c. also a title of priests), variant of sire, originally used only in unstressed position. Generalized as a respectful form of address by c.1350; used as a salutation at the beginning of letters from 1425.

from: Online Etymology Dictionary

http://http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sir (broken link)

U.S.
While madam as a form of address is limited to certain highly formal environments, ma’am is current in everyday speech in many regions of the U.S. It is used as a polite form of address toward (but not strictly limited to)

a female stranger presumed old enough to have children, particularly if older than the speaker
a female customer one is serving
a female teacher or school official in a school which emphasizes formality
a female superior in the military
Similarly, the usage yes, ma’am connotes deference, particularly by one who has been scolded for misbehavior, but also in more friendly circumstances.

Being addressed as ma’am for the first time is a minor rite of passage in the United States.

Ma’am is used strictly as a form of address, and not in the various other senses of madam.

from: ma'am - Wiktionary

[jenn02674]

I have a bit of a unique perspective on the whole ma'm and sir thing. I was born and raised in the south by full blown British immigrants. I was not required to say sir or ma'm to my parents or anyone else but I was required to be polite and that included the whole please, thankyou, pardon me, answer in complete sentences and looking at the person you are talking to. there is a whole lot more to giving and receiving respect than saying ma'm or sir.

I have a friend born and raised in the south who constantly complains about how rude people are from up north (not something I agree with her on). But she never, ever says please and rarely says thankyou and it drives me crazy. We will be at a restaurant and a server will ask her if she needs something and she will just blurt out yes or no and barely even look at the server. Normally I wouldn't even notice someone else but because she complains and talks so much about how rude yankees are, I happen to notice her "rudeness" from my end.

I do not require my son to say ma'm or sir (I let his teachers and grandparents ask him to say it though) but he is about the most polite five year old you will see. You don't know how many kids I come across that never, ever say please or thankyou. Drives me crazy, to me that is much more disrespectful of people in general. But it is all a matter of perspective and what you have been taught or have learned.

[darhe3425]

I've made that observation as well. The limited use of please and thankyou today, which I think is more important to learn than m'am and sir. I understand the need for it in some places or shall I say occasions but I'm curious on it's origins because it does seem to be aligned with a show of respect, and it is used mainly in southern parts of U.S. From a historical standpoint, though, only certain members of Southern Society were afforded this show of respect, and it was by command that it occurred. It is still used on command by children, and they are considered rude without it, even with please and thank you's. The reasons why I don't require of children is because of it's earlier historical roots. I think it places people in a passive posture almost for life. Don't get me wrong, I think ELDERS in a community deserve respect...I'm just wondering what the link is between m'am and sir...since it assures no one genuine respect, just look the kids who will say m'am in one breath and curse in your presence in the next breath. It doesn't connect.

[cpg35223]

Originally Posted by darhe3425

I've made that observation as well. The limited use of please and thankyou today, which I think is more important to learn than m'am and sir. I understand the need for it in some places or shall I say occasions but I'm curious on it's origins because it does seem to be aligned with a show of respect, and it is used mainly in southern parts of U.S. From a historical standpoint, though, only certain members of Southern Society were afforded this show of respect, and it was by command that it occurred. It is still used on command by children, and they are considered rude without it, even with please and thank you's. The reasons why I don't require of children is because of it's earlier historical roots. I think it places people in a passive posture almost for life. Don't get me wrong, I think ELDERS in a community deserve respect...I'm just wondering what the link is between m'am and sir...since it assures no one genuine respect, just look the kids who will say m'am in one breath and curse in your presence in the next breath. It doesn't connect.

I'm sorry. But a number of point you make are wrong. In the South, Sir and Ma'am are not a function of social status at all. Adults use it when addressing someone they do not know, regardless of social station. You're just as likely to hear a customer say ma'am to a cashier at the grocery store as vice versa. As a relative newcomer to the South, I have to admit that is a pretty charming custom. It also explains why there's a great deal less friction in the South between races and classes today.

As far as the passive posture for life goes, I'm not sure where you get that. It is simply no more than a way of demonstrating that you do not take the other person for granted. It is not an indication of subservience.

[darhe3425]

Actually what I said was, Historically m'am and sir were used as indicators of status. In antebullum time the master was referred as sir, and the anyone during the period who were enslaved were taught to refer to the masters and mistresses as ma'am and sir. Today, most youngsters are taught to refer to all elders as m'am and sir, however that was not the case just few generations ago. If you are unaware of this then it certainly is not hard to find this information. As I originally stated, I was interested in the origins, not the forms of it's usage today.

[Southlander]

Originally Posted by momlady530

Down south, it seems as though all African-Americans, regardless of age, address all white people as "ma'am" or "sir".

Excuse me?
Not true. Certainly not any more.
For my part, I've spent almost all my life in Alabama and address older people, and strangers, of any color with "ma'am" and "sir." And I've taught my children to do the same.
An older person and/or a guest in our home or region deserves that respect.
Rude people may be found everywhere. Polite people may be found everywhere, too.

[Sampaguita]

Originally Posted by momlady530
Down south, it seems as though all African-Americans, regardless of age, address all white people as "ma'am" or "sir".

Hmmm...I don't know - I'm Asian and traveled extensively in the southern states and was routinely addressed as ma'am by a lot of people - including whites and blacks alike. I address obvious elders as ma'am/sir regardless of race or occupation or "social" status. I picked that up while going to school/living in Texas.

[darhe3425]

That is my point, I am known for my respect of my elders. This is by way of What I do to remember them in the way that they recognize me as being what they bring along. By this, I mean, I am to be taught that elders mean "wisdom," and not just authority by size. Children are captured, tortured, and done a way with by elders, are to be referred to as sir and m'am. It's not just in the language that I object to, children recognize, very early that their communities do not look "respectful," streets are not paved, trash removed haphazardly, buildings unrepaired, and they wonder where is this respect you mandate me to show elders who cannot even cooperate to create a community of MUTUAL respect. Then we have the nerve to worry about who is responding with obligatory m'ams and sirs?" Next time someone referrs to you as madam, or master make sure you note their station, where they are posturing for passivity to please you in an effort to eeeek out a dime, quarter, or dollar. Really do you believe they respect you? or do you just feel good, bellieving they do?

[cpg35223]

Originally Posted by darhe3425

That is my point, I am known for my respect of my elders. This is by way of What I do to remember them in the way that they recognize me as being what they bring along. By this, I mean, I am to be taught that elders mean "wisdom," and not just authority by size. Children are captured, tortured, and done a way with by elders, are to be referred to as sir and m'am. It's not just in the language that I object to, children recognize, very early that their communities do not look "respectful," streets are not paved, trash removed haphazardly, buildings unrepaired, and they wonder where is this respect you mandate me to show elders who cannot even cooperate to create a community of MUTUAL respect. Then we have the nerve to worry about who is responding with obligatory m'ams and sirs?" Next time someone referrs to you as madam, or master make sure you note their station, where they are posturing for passivity to please you in an effort to eeeek out a dime, quarter, or dollar. Really do you believe they respect you? or do you just feel good, bellieving they do?

See, you have a very mechanistic view of people. You seem to think that a person addressing another as 'sir' or 'ma'am' is doing so strictly in a transactional way. What a sad, impoverished way to look at people. For what it's worth, I live in a part of the country where people address strangers in this way, regardless of the situation or social status. It is an automatic assumption that the other person is to be respected as a person--not for what can be derived from the relationship.