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My usage of a link that was specifically regarding data for Pharmaceutical revenue was intentional. It was a Finance/Economic link; not a Medical Science link. Perfectly within context.
My "big ticket" comment meant "big profit" & you knew that.
"If Pharma really wanted to go for the Big Ticket they would stop making the vaccine and concentrate on the antivirals....much bigger margin, much more profit, much bigger ticket... "
Well; your right about THAT (Or; they could distribute a marginally effective vaccine & pull profits from BOTH):
Notice that # 15 (vaccines) come in only slightly ahead of #19 (anti-virals) as far as spending but they both made the top 20.
Sorry for my diversion from the OP's topic; just defending my challenged "big ticket item" phrase.
FWIW: neither myself or my children will be receiving the Flu vaccine but we have received other vaccines as recommended by our doctors.
I believe in another thread you "claimed" to be a health care professional, based on many of your posts I find that to be less than believable...
If it is true the fact that you would put patients at risk by not getting the flu shot yourself is reprehensible
I practice at one of the largest and most prestigious health care institutions in the country, flu shots are mandatory for all care providers. Failure to receive the vaccination is grounds for termination...
Nope. You need to get healthier friends and family that actively choose to be healthy.
And of the "50,000 deaths each year" statement, only about 500 to 1,000 are attributed to flu. The other 49,000 to 49,500 deaths are from pneumonia. The CDC lumps them into to one category to make the flu more scary. Look it up yourself in the annual vital stats. Stop fear mongering and being terrified. Go get healthy and live your life.
Oh god I know I'm wasting my time typing this but whatever. Pneumonia as a secondary infection to the flu. And there is no possible way you've never met anyone who has had the flu. You don't know what you're talking about. It's a virus. Viruses don't care who you know.
There is no "herd immunity" in the US when it comes to the flu or the flu vaccine. She didn't get the flu because she didn't get the flu.
That's not particularly true. I got the vaccine primarily to protect two of my students (now former) who had diagnoses that precluded their own vaccination. They benefit from the herd immunity quite a bit.
I seriously doubt her family has a real reason when she is waving the anti vax flag, but not sure what makes you think the flu virus is unique in its lack of herd immunity.
Oh god I know I'm wasting my time typing this but whatever. Pneumonia as a secondary infection to the flu. And there is no possible way you've never met anyone who has had the flu. You don't know what you're talking about. It's a virus. Viruses don't care who you know.
So why aren't promoting the pneumonia vaccine, if the pneumonia is what KILLS people, not the flu?
If the flu is so horrifying and so deadly, I think if someone I knew had it I would know, right? I mean, I'd have to go visit then in the hospital and attend the funeral, too, wouldn't I?
*crickets*
I had one friend who got the flu vaccine about 8 years ago. Perfectly healthy individual. She then got Gullien-Barre and was hospitalized for 10 days. But hey, it's safe. Really.
That's not particularly true. I got the vaccine primarily to protect two of my students (now former) who had diagnoses that precluded their own vaccination. They benefit from the herd immunity quite a bit.
The flu vaccine doesn't create immunity to the flu. It's not nearly effective enough to do so and any possible potential temporary protection is just that, temporary. Roughly half of the population gets the vaccine on any given year. So you have about half of the population who may have limited protection from the vaccine and roughly half who have no potential protection from the vaccine. Those with the vaccine may or may not get the flu that year. Same goes for those without the vaccine, some will get the flu, some won't. The flu vaccine has not shown to reduce transmission rates, hospitalizations or complications from the flu. In addition, the flu virus mutates rapidly. While your annual flu shot may have reduced your odds of getting the flu by about half if the strains were a match for the season according to research, your students still stood a large chance of coming into contact with the flu from a large number of people, both vaccinated and unvaccinated who may have been carrying the virus.
Quote:
71 people would need vaccination to prevent one case of influenza (95% CI 64 to 80).
So why aren't promoting the pneumonia vaccine, if the pneumonia is what KILLS people, not the flu?
If the flu is so horrifying and so deadly, I think if someone I knew had it I would know, right? I mean, I'd have to go visit then in the hospital and attend the funeral, too, wouldn't I?
*crickets*
I had one friend who got the flu vaccine about 8 years ago. Perfectly healthy individual. She then got Gullien-Barre and was hospitalized for 10 days. But hey, it's safe. Really.
1. Two pneumonia vaccines are recommended for people over 65, and younger adults with certain health conditions. One is the same vaccine given to infants. These vaccines protect against pneumonias caused by pneumococcal bacteria. There are many strains of pneumococcal bacteria and the vaccines protect against 36 of them. Some pneumonias are viral, and some are caused by other bacteria. Adults: Protect Yourself with Pneumococcal Vaccines | Features | CDC
2. I don't know. That really is surprising. I think perhaps people are just not telling you all their medical history. Poster steveklein wrote: "Given that their are millions of cases of the flu every year, that is just an absolutely preposterous statement." I agree.
3. OK, I'm going to play the anti-vax game here and raise a little doubt. How do you know the flu shot caused the GBS? Answer: you don't. No one knows for sure what causes GBS, however, it's usually preceded by some type of infection, usually respiratory or GI. It is rarely caused by surgery or immunization. Funny that you would know someone who had GBS from a flu shot, when GBS in general is pretty rare, but not anyone who had ever had flu, when flu is common! Guillain-Barre syndrome Causes - Mayo Clinic
Last edited by Katarina Witt; 09-10-2016 at 08:15 AM..
Reason: spelling
Simple arithmetic, from your quote:
Vaccinated people were (15.6- 9.9) divided by 15.6 = 36% less likely to get influenza like illness and (2.4-1.1) divided by 2.4 = 54% less likely to get laboratory confirmed influenza.
A person with the vaccine has a 1.1% chance of developing lab confirmed flu. A person without the vaccine stands a 2.4% chance of developing lab confirmed flu. While that may be true that it's a 54% difference, both groups face a very small risk of developing lab confirmed influenza. Remember that those numbers don't take into account the "healthy user effect" that was mentioned before in a study that I posted which showed that people who are generally in better health tend to get vaccines which may account for differences when trying to compare the two groups. Would a person in good health be more or less likely to go to the doctor with the flu? I personally think that they would be less likely because their immune system can take care of it without any additional medical intervention. The risk of getting the flu exists in both groups but it's small in both groups. The risk of having complications is even smaller. Remember that the vaccine has not shown that it reduces complications or hospitalizations from influenza.
A person with the vaccine has a 1.1% chance of developing lab confirmed flu. A person without the vaccine stands a 2.4% chance of developing lab confirmed flu. While that may be true that it's a 54% difference, both groups face a very small risk of developing lab confirmed influenza. Remember that those numbers don't take into account the "healthy user effect" that was mentioned before in a study that I posted which showed that people who are generally in better health tend to get vaccines which may account for differences when trying to compare the two groups. Would a person in good health be more or less likely to go to the doctor with the flu? I personally think that they would be less likely because their immune system can take care of it without any additional medical intervention. The risk of getting the flu exists in both groups but it's small in both groups. The risk of having complications is even smaller. Remember that the vaccine has not shown that it reduces complications or hospitalizations from influenza.
Or, the healthy person may be healthy because they take care of themselves better, including getting a flu shot! But what you and I think really doesn't matter. What matters is what the research says. I will also point out that 2.4% of the population of the city of Denver is about 14,400 people. That's a lot of cases of flu, even if the percent seems small to someone who doesn't understand epidemiology.
Your last statement is based on one study, which you like because it tells you what you want to hear. There are other studies that say otherwise.
A person with the vaccine has a 1.1% chance of developing lab confirmed flu. A person without the vaccine stands a 2.4% chance of developing lab confirmed flu. While that may be true that it's a 54% difference, both groups face a very small risk of developing lab confirmed influenza. Remember that those numbers don't take into account the "healthy user effect" that was mentioned before in a study that I posted which showed that people who are generally in better health tend to get vaccines which may account for differences when trying to compare the two groups. Would a person in good health be more or less likely to go to the doctor with the flu? I personally think that they would be less likely because their immune system can take care of it without any additional medical intervention. The risk of getting the flu exists in both groups but it's small in both groups. The risk of having complications is even smaller. Remember that the vaccine has not shown that it reduces complications or hospitalizations from influenza.
Anti-vaxxers. Such a joke.
It is amazing with the billions of people who have contributed so much knowledge to civilization over the last few thousand years that we still have morons that won't get vaccinated.
So why aren't promoting the pneumonia vaccine, if the pneumonia is what KILLS people, not the flu?
If the flu is so horrifying and so deadly, I think if someone I knew had it I would know, right? I mean, I'd have to go visit then in the hospital and attend the funeral, too, wouldn't I?
*crickets*
I had one friend who got the flu vaccine about 8 years ago. Perfectly healthy individual. She then got Gullien-Barre and was hospitalized for 10 days. But hey, it's safe. Really.
The pneumonia vaccine is promoted, so your question is moot. However, the flu virus itself can cause pneumonia. It can kill all by its lonesome self.
Influenza infection can cause Guillain Barre, too, and the risk is higher with the infection than with the vaccine.
"Our study demonstrates that there is also a risk of GBS after influenza virus infection in adults, with an expected frequency much higher than that after influenza vaccination using either inactivated vaccines (1 GBS case per 1,000,000 vaccinated persons [34–36]) or live attenuated vaccines (2 GBS cases per 2,500,000 vaccinated persons [37]). Tam et al. [28] recently provided evidence that influenza vaccination might actually protect against GBS. These authors pointed out that this finding was not inconsistent with an absolute increase in GBS risk after vaccination but that it indicated a smaller risk than that after influenza."
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTerri
The flu vaccine doesn't create immunity to the flu. It's not nearly effective enough to do so and any possible potential temporary protection is just that, temporary. Roughly half of the population gets the vaccine on any given year. So you have about half of the population who may have limited protection from the vaccine and roughly half who have no potential protection from the vaccine. Those with the vaccine may or may not get the flu that year. Same goes for those without the vaccine, some will get the flu, some won't. The flu vaccine has not shown to reduce transmission rates, hospitalizations or complications from the flu. In addition, the flu virus mutates rapidly. While your annual flu shot may have reduced your odds of getting the flu by about half if the strains were a match for the season according to research, your students still stood a large chance of coming into contact with the flu from a large number of people, both vaccinated and unvaccinated who may have been carrying the virus.
Seventy one people needed to treat to prevent one case is actually a pretty low number.
I t would be wonderful to have a universal flu vaccine that would protect against all strains and not need to be repeated annually. There is active research on that. For now, what we have is what we have.
I have shown you that studies other than the one you have latched onto as gospel - and more recent ones - do show a decrease in hospitalizations and complications with the vaccine. Right now, that is what the preponderance of the evidence shows.
"Those with the vaccine may or may not get the flu that year. Same goes for those without the vaccine, some will get the flu, some won't." is a logical fallacy known as false equivalency, since those who take the vaccine are 50% to 60% less likely to get the flu than those who do not. Someone who is vaccinated is less likely to be carrying the virus than someone who is not.
It is true that vaccination rates needed to achieve herd immunity are currently not met in the US: 80% in healthy persons and 90% in high-risk persons.
That is why folks like yourself, if you do not want to use the vaccine, should be encouraging everyone else to do so. You should want enough people to take the vaccine for you to be able to hide in the herd.
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