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Old 11-25-2016, 07:04 PM
 
3,205 posts, read 2,613,310 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GiGi603 View Post
Just had a conversation about this...

It is a shame that it takes about a year to enjoy/learn an instrument. I think it is a wonderful skill. It is difficult to keep a child interested in if the progress is slow. Learning an instrument is a slow progress. It is also so depended on the teacher. One of my sons continued on with it. My other two had lousy teachers in middle/high school.

It is never, ever a waste to learn a musical instrument.
Three years of piano lessons in elementary school

Four years of playing French Horn from 5th through 8th grade, in junior high band AND orchestra.

Absolutely zero natural talent, practiced, practiced, practiced.

Finally when high school band tryouts came around, my musical career was gently euthanized once and for all by the high school music director.

By definition, it was a COMPLETE waste for me to learn EITHER of those instruments.

Oh, and to this day I LOVE music. I just can't PLAY it past a superbly mediocre level.
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Old 11-26-2016, 01:41 PM
 
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Children are more likely to lose interest in something if they are literally forced into it.


I think music lessons are great for developing the brain even if they don't play a musical instrument forever. I think every child should learn to play an instrument, even if just for a short while.
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Old 11-26-2016, 04:54 PM
 
Location: St. Cloud
285 posts, read 261,682 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tassity22 View Post
Children are more likely to lose interest in something if they are literally forced into it.


I think music lessons are great for developing the brain even if they don't play a musical instrument forever. I think every child should learn to play an instrument, even if just for a short while.
So music classes?

Not trying to be a prick, just genuinely asking if this is what you mean. Music classes in elementary school, for me at least, have you pick up and/or see and play with a variety of instruments for a short time. So a kid has enough time to play with it, use it, see if they like it or not, and move on. You know a kid liked an instrument if they got bitchy when the next section was presented and we had to move on. I was that kid during the orchestra section!

Another way should be the upperclassmen concerts my jr high would have. They'll have a "tour" of elementary schools, like the choir and band, and play songs for the kids and explain each instrument and have the person play a scale and do some other things with it. When the concert was over, we'd go to the classrooms and go in depth and really talk to the students about the instrument and what it was like playing.

Personally, that sealed it for me with orchestra and a year later I picked up the violin . Exposure like that, rather than shoving an instrument in their hands and forcing them to take lessons, is both cheap and fun. The kids can hear cool songs, complex songs, watch and listen to the solo player, and really get into it. Then afterwards have a more in depth talk and really learn what it can be like without investing in an instrument. A big plus is kids can really see, first hand, what they could easily sound like with just a few months of dedicated practice and hard work. But that's my personal experience and opinion.
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Old 11-26-2016, 11:35 PM
 
Location: The point of no return, er, NorCal
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I presented it as an option, but didn't force it. My oldest decided to play the clarinet in 5th grade, but stopped at the end of the year. My ex-H was a professional instrumentalist.

I'd love for my youngest to take piano lessons. I figure introduce it to her around 5.
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Old 11-27-2016, 07:45 AM
 
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I think that children should attempt to learn an instrument early and that piano is the best one to begin with. I would say they should be allowed to quit if they really don't enjoy it, but I think at least a year is helpful.

Note the math-music connection.

The interesting connection between math and music

Quote:
“young children provided with instrumental instruction score significantly higher on tasks measuring spatial-temporal cognition, hand-eye coordination and arithmetic.” Part of this is due to the amount of overlap between music skills and math skills. For example, Rauscher says the part-whole concept that is necessary for understanding fractions, decimals and per cents is highly relevant in understanding rhythm. “A literate musician is required to continually mentally subdivide beat to arrive at the correct interpretation of rhythmic notation,” she writes. “The context has changed, but the structure of the problem is essentially the same as any part-whole problem posed mathematically.”
Quote:
Research shows that children who learn their academics through music and dance retain the information better than children who learn the same concepts by verbal instruction.
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Old 11-27-2016, 01:35 PM
 
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My dad's rule for us was that we played an instrument from the time we were in 3th grade (where band started in school) until 8th grade (end of Junior High). So it was always during the school day or just before, as an elective. After that, we could quit. He never played an instrument, and it was one of his regrets (he also made us learn to swim because he never had). Of 5 kids, I was the only one who played through high school and partway through college. Everyone else quit after 8th grade. I picked up a few instruments again (and even taught myself a new one) to join a community orchestra as an adult (20 years after I last played), and it was a blast.

When we moved to a place with band in school, all of our kids picked an instrument. They wanted to continue, and are now in 8th, 9th, and 11th grade. My youngest has talked about quitting in high school, but she wants to stick with choir (which she also does). That's fine.

I think kids should be exposed to reading music, whether in band or choir or orchestra or whatever, and I would have insisted my kids do that in elementary school (one year, twice a week class). I would also make sure they had some music reading exposure throughout middle school. But I wouldn't force them to continue in one of those classes.
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Old 11-28-2016, 06:01 AM
 
Location: Mount Laurel
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While we are on the subject of musical instrument, I highly recommend finding a local orchestra for youth in your area. School teaches very little. Private lesson is very expensive so time is very limited.
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Old 11-28-2016, 11:12 AM
 
Location: NYC
20,550 posts, read 17,609,185 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pkbab5 View Post
Having taught computer programming at the college level, I will share with you my observations.


You are correct that programming is cerebral, that it requires logic, math, organizational, and creative skills in order to execute. I have had students who have put in many hours of study and still could not complete simple programming assignments, because their brain was just not wired up that way. And I have had students that can understand programming logic as easily as breathing. And every single gifted programmer that I asked had learned a musical instrument as a young child. Granted this is anecdotal evidence, but I strongly believe that the brain organization that is promoted by learning a musical instrument early (specifically the piano) is highly conducive to later being proficient at the types of logical thinking required to be a good programmer.


You are incorrect that operating systems have nothing to do with programming. That's silly. Operating systems are programmed.
I meant operating systems in regards to user interface design in that argument.

Quote:
You are sort of correct that programming is about languages. Yes, learning to code is like learning a new language. BUT. A good programmer can code in any language, he can summon up the algorithms and design patterns needed to implement the solution to whatever problem there is, and then can use a reference to look up what the particular semantics are to implement that algorithm or design pattern in almost any language. All the great programmers I know have dozens of computer language books in their offices that they basically use as translators depending on what languages they need for a specific task. So being a programmer is more about knowing how computer languages in general work, and how to use them to solve a problem, without necessarily needing to know every single language out there.
Program languages are tools, some languages better for certain jobs than others. It's very easy for someone gifted in sports and arts to excel because the barriers to entry is a lot easier. A kid gifted in computer science needs to demonstrate a keen ability to learn, understand, and process information.

Quote:
ANYWAY. My main point is that if you want your child to have the opportunity to become a good programmer/software engineer later in life, the very best start for them is to take piano lessons starting as absolutely as early as possible, until at least about age 7. While their brain is still in it's early stages of development. It's better to teach your 5 year old piano than programming, if you want him to eventually be a programmer. Or good at anything to do with math.
The tough part is that to a good programmer or software engineer, one must 1st learn all of the rules to how computers work and that takes a lot of math, science, reading skills in order to become a highly adaptable computer programmer.
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Old 11-28-2016, 12:55 PM
 
1,955 posts, read 1,751,687 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vision33r View Post
I meant operating systems in regards to user interface design in that argument.

Knowing your target operating system is very very important when designing a user interface. You're not going to design the same sort of interface for a Windows application as you are for a custom real-time hardware embedded application.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vision33r View Post
Program languages are tools, some languages better for certain jobs than others. It's very easy for someone gifted in sports and arts to excel because the barriers to entry is a lot easier. A kid gifted in computer science needs to demonstrate a keen ability to learn, understand, and process information.

The tough part is that to a good programmer or software engineer, one must 1st learn all of the rules to how computers work and that takes a lot of math, science, reading skills in order to become a highly adaptable computer programmer.

Logical reasoning skills. You mean it takes a lot of logical reasoning skills. Many logical reasoning skills can be taught with math, science, and reading. They are also taught when learning a difficult instrument (difficult instrument meaning an instrument which requires use of both hands doing two different things at the same time, requiring both brain hemispheres to coordinate with each other, and also requires being able to rapidly process complicated melody and rhythm patters at the same time).


Another thing that a musical instrument teaches that is very useful later in life (when learning things like programming) is persistence, work ethic, and grit. Nobody gets good at the piano without constant practice over long periods of time while listening to criticisms and fixing their mistakes. A piano lesson as a child is like a software engineer's code review - you've spent a long time working on your product, and you get together with another stakeholder who reviews your product and tells you the parts that need more work, then you go back and fix it. This is incredible practice for the future engineer.
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Old 11-28-2016, 01:39 PM
 
Location: NYC
20,550 posts, read 17,609,185 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pkbab5 View Post

Another thing that a musical instrument teaches that is very useful later in life (when learning things like programming) is persistence, work ethic, and grit. Nobody gets good at the piano without constant practice over long periods of time while listening to criticisms and fixing their mistakes. A piano lesson as a child is like a software engineer's code review - you've spent a long time working on your product, and you get together with another stakeholder who reviews your product and tells you the parts that need more work, then you go back and fix it. This is incredible practice for the future engineer.
I can certainly see that understanding music structures is very similar to programming because there's a structure and rules. And programming requires a lot of practice and experience, which is why I don't get why American companies are discriminating against older workers. I find myself much more efficient and proficient with scripting as I got older. When I was younger I find myself digging through programming and trying to crawl my way out of overly complicated code.
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