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Camping and building pine wood derby cars doesn't require a belief in anything either, but here you are.
I just find it confusing that you are okay with celebrating a religious holiday like Christmas, but joining a secular organization like the boy scouts is out of the question.
I'll repeat myself again, our Christmas celebration has absolutely nothing to do with god.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sundaydrive00
All because the oath meantions God? What does your child do at school when they're reciting the pledge of allegiance each morning? It sound like your child is allowed to attend school even though he might hear the word "God". So why are you denying him the opportunity to join scouts, to spend time having fun with his friends?
I'm not sure if they recite the pledge at school or not. You're right though, if they do I'm not thrilled about it. School is necessary though so I don't have a lot of choice there. It does irk me that the pledge did not originally include "under god", I'm really glad that in the 50's it was decided to make it divisive. Beyond that though I'm not big on ritualistic recitation of the Pledge of Allegiance. I can get around it though as I believe dissent, when necessary, is being loyal to this country and its ideals.
That is certainly something to think about. My oldest DD is in your shoes. Grandson will soon be 5 years old, attends Kindergarten, and son-in-law brought up investigating the local Cub Scout troop for him to join if he wants to. I can see her having issues with the pledge. She's an atheist and is determined to prevent her kids' exposure to any religious beliefs. Impossible in the long run, I say, but she's going to try to delay it as much as possible.
Is God just mentioned in the pledge, or do they hold Sunday morning worship during weekend camp outs, pray before meals, etc.? When I was a Girl Scout, we had a leader who was pretty religious, and required us to do the above on camp outs.
It isn't even so much that I want to prevent any exposure to religious belief, it's that I don't want him to see that as the default or feel that it is something he needs to participate in to fit in.
It isn't even so much that I want to prevent any exposure to religious belief, it's that I don't want him to see that as the default or feel that it is something he needs to participate in to fit in.
I'll repeat myself again, our Christmas celebration has absolutely nothing to do with god.
I'm not sure if they recite the pledge at school or not. You're right though, if they do I'm not thrilled about it. School is necessary though so I don't have a lot of choice there. It does irk me that the pledge did not originally include "under god", I'm really glad that in the 50's it was decided to make it divisive. Beyond that though I'm not big on ritualistic recitation of the Pledge of Allegiance. I can get around it though as I believe dissent, when necessary, is being loyal to this country and its ideals.
My problem with the pledge extends to challenging the notion that pledging allegiance is even possible for a little kid and that introducing that concept as a wrote mantra at a very young age can have adverse affects. Small potatoes overall. My son (older) brought it up first... what does that even MEAN to us??? he asked. Interesting conversation.
It isn't even so much that I want to prevent any exposure to religious belief, it's that I don't want him to see that as the default or feel that it is something he needs to participate in to fit in.
Why don't you just find a non-religious troop? They're all over the place nowadays.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eightbitguy
Why don't you just find a non-religious troop? They're all over the place nowadays.
Are you guessing that, or do you know that for a fact?
BSA has specific rules, and to start a Troop or Pack you need to adhere to those rules, although there is a little wiggle-room, as with the Unitarian sponsored groups.
You do realize that your choosing to obsess over this, rather than just letting your son join cub scouts, is more damaging to him and his social well-being than anything that the cub scouts could expose him to?
Imagine how HE feels. Put yourself in HIS shoes. He's in early elementary school. There's a fun group that he can join, that really is NOT a religious cult (when was the last time you heard of someone having to be deprogrammed from cub scouts?), and that does some cool things, that many, if not all, of his classmates will join. But he's got to be the weird kid who is not allowed to participate, because the credo of the group mentions "God", because you're going to sacrifice his well-being to make a stand.
Get off your high horse, and consider how your SON feels! Lighten up. You want to be controlling and rigid about things? Do it to YOURSELF, if you must, and not to your kid! I understand where you're coming from. I too am agnostic, and I hate the imposition about anything having to do with God in any sphere of our lives. But don't make your child the banner for your beliefs which are contrary to those of the world around us. For kids, fitting in socially is extraordinarily important. Let him be. Let him join cub scouts. Support him in it. Go with him to the meetings. They have nothing to do with God, and everything to do with being crazy hyperactive little boys together, with an excuse for the fathers to get together too, supervising the boys in their crazy hyperactive little activities together (yes, I went to a meeting or two with my son, and told my husband that there was no way in ... that I was taking on that responsibility, and that he could go to the meetings and hang with the dads (and moms) and boys).
At home, talk occasionally in an age-appropriate manner with your children about your (non) religious beliefs. At your son's age, we didn't say anything about god. Fortunately, our home cultural /religious rituals were in a language the kids didn't yet understand. By the time they were about 8 or so, I was warning them about people who say, "God told me to tell you....", saying that no one has any way of knowing what God wants them to say or do, and that people use God as a tool to control other people. Instead, we talked with them about ethical behavior from an early age, because ethical behavior was the right way to behave.
I'll never forget how we ran head-on into this issue when my oldest was about 8 yrs old. He went to a religious school (because our cultural heritage is so tightly connected with our religious heritage, although our stream of that religion tends NOT to talk directly about God a lot, probably because we have been murdered "in the name of God" for millenia by evil accolytes of evil religions). There was an assignment for parent and child to do together that was for both to write an essay, "I felt God's presence in my life when...." So I had to approach my child about this issue. I wasn't too surprised when he said that he didn't really believe in God, although he loved our cultural and religious traditions. I had to go to the teacher and get the assignment modified to ..."such and such a biblical character felt God's presence in his life when..." My son had simply absorbed our values, without my doing anything.
My point is, your son will likely absorb your non-religious values by osmosis, if you raise him in an ethical household that doesn't shove fanatical atheism down his throat. If you make cub scouts the hill that you die on, and scar your kindergarten age son with your fanaticism, you are more likely to isolate him socially, and make him resent you. And he'll probably be more vulnerable to finding, later on, the warm inclusiveness of a religious cult, in reaction to your fanatical atheism. Let him know your values in a gentle, age-appropriate manner, and follow HIS lead about how HE wants to live his life, as long as he's not harming anyone else. And right now, at the age of 5, HE wants to try scouting. Let him. The scouts don't exclude anyone now, so it's really not an organization that is doing anyone any harm.
It isn't even so much that I want to prevent any exposure to religious belief, it's that I don't want him to see that as the default or feel that it is something he needs to participate in to fit in.
My husband and I were raised Catholics. I attended a Catholic grade school for the first 7 years of my schooling. We now have two kids. We don't attend church and we aren't religious in the least. My daughter was in girl scouts for 3 years. I was a co- troop leader for 2 of those years. She recited the GS pledge without issue. We weren't a religious troop at all. Find one that doesn't focus on the religion, which shouldn't be hard to do. I have quite a few friends that have son's in boy scouts and I think one of them attends church on a regular basis and the others not at all. I think you are to hung up on the mention of God in a pledge they do once/twice a week. Focus on what your son could get out of the experience and the potential life long skills he could learn.
I also have a more relaxed approach to religion. My son has a friend that attends church most Sundays. The friend has invited mine to go a few times. I've let him for the experience. My daughter has friends that also attend church regularly. She's come to me asking me questions because of some things her friend told her. I let her know that it's ok to not believe in God. Not everyone does and it doesn't make her a bad person. It's whatever she chooses to believe.
Why don't you just find a non-religious troop? They're all over the place nowadays.
He might find a pack or den that's not affiliated with a religious organization, but won't find one that doesn't have faith or religious tradition in its program:
"Young people need faith. There is abundant evidence that children benefit from the moral compass provided by religious tradition. We acknowledge that faith can become an important part of a child’s identity. Each of the major faiths breeds hope, optimism, compassion, and a belief in a better tomorrow. Scouting encourages each young person to begin a spiritual journey through the practice of his or her faith tradition. One of the key tenets of Scouting is “duty to God.” While Scouting does not define religious belief for its members, it has been adopted by and works with youth programs of all major faiths."
I don't want to turn this thread into a debate so I was trying to avoid being specific but I see that isn't going to work. It's the Cub Scouts. The organization requires a belief in God and the oath begins "On my honor I will do my best to do my duty to God". My family are atheists and therefore can't honestly take the oath or be part of the organization. The thing is I think scouting can be a great activity for kids. I am conflicted because I can't in good conscience be part of the organization and I don't want to teach my children it is okay to lie. Or is it okay in this instance to tell my son to fudge the truth? He has no concept of what a god is at this point, it has never come up in conversation.
At the age of 5 your child is not an atheist nor religious - his beliefs and understanding are not formed yet. His oath does not have to represent your personal beliefs because his do not have to match yours. You can have a conversation with your child about the oath, saying "To us it means we will do our best to do right by everyone, as we are not particularly religious. Also we do not think at the age of 5 you should have your mind made up about anything in terms of religion because you have a lifetime to think about it and learn as you go." You do not take the oath, your kid does, so your personal beliefs are irrelevant. Why make a mountain out of a molehill here? Let your kid have a good time and raise him to be a good person and use scouting as a means to promote his development as a good person and to benefit from those experiences. Let him sort out his beliefs himself in due time.
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