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Why is it that every Christmas, someone has to come along and "educate" us poor slobs about this? Don't you think we know it by now? We don't know when Jesus' birthday was. People didn't celebrate birthdays then. So why can't it be celebrated on December 25?
Many of us grew up believing in Santa in this country and I think you'd be hard pressed to find folks who would say they were harmed by it, but probably can find some who may have some various issues with it.
I remember being a bit upset when I 'found out' but I kind of already suspected anyway - that part was quickly gotten over. I do think I might have been more appreciative of the sacrifices my parents made to provide for us if I had known all along where the gifts were coming from. I do remember enjoying the 'magic' of Christmas and the Tooth Fairy, etc. As I got older, many years after knowing the truth, I remember a brief bout of disappointment or anger over society perpetuating this lie - but that would have been at an age I probably felt that way about almost everything. I do find the whole elf-on-the-shelf spying and the naughty/nice list stuff to this day a bit disturbing and problematic but I don't take it too seriously.
I have never met anyone who claimed to be religiously confused by Santa, but many make a valid (imho) point that the myth takes away from the purported religious purpose of the holiday - which can be positive, neutral or negative depending on one's beliefs and point of view. One can also argue he is part of the commercialization of the holiday.
I think it is possible to enjoy Christmas in a secular way without the false stuff. But it doesn't seem to be likely to do much harm 'playing along', either.
If some think Santa Claus is damaging, they should have heard the stories my grandmother told about the "Belschnickel". As I wrote in a previous post, the "Belschnickel" is a "Bad Santa". When my grandmother was a child (early 1900's) in rural Pennsylvania ("Dutch" country), on Christmas Eve, a neighbor would go from house to house, farm to farm, disguised in rags and black face. He'd have candy and a buggy whip. My grandmother said he'd throw the candies on the floor, and when the children would scramble for them, he'd smack their hands and backs with the whip, to the hilarious laughter of the adults. Then they'd give him food/drink and he'd be on his way to the next house to traumatize more children there.
Santa is a pleasant fantasy...the Belschnickel was frightening and real.
Edit: In my previous post, I wrote that DD and son in law have a wooden Belschnickel statue that they display at Christmas and use instead of "Elf on the Shelf". My grandsons are not familiar with any of the stories of what the REAL Belschnickels did in the good ol' days. They think he's just a "tattle tale" to Santa.
I believe the point was that the celebration of Christmas on December 25th is/was a continuation of the much older, pagan celebration of the winter solstice which occurs on approximately December 21st.
Several of the modern world's Christian rituals and trappings were derived from pagan elements that were simply incorporated into the dogma. For example, the whole "rebirth" concept of Easter.
Yeah, yeah, yeah! Why do so many people think we unwashed masses don't know that stuff already? Every year, as the Thanksgiving leftovers disappear, this kind of stuff pops up here on CD. Someone, usually a self-described "atheist" takes it upon him/herself to educate us. If we didn't know it before, which I can assure you I did, we know it now!
Yeah, yeah, yeah! Why do so many people think we unwashed masses don't know that stuff already? Every year, as the Thanksgiving leftovers disappear, this kind of stuff pops up here on CD. Someone, usually a self-described "atheist" takes it upon him/herself to educate us. If we didn't know it before, which I can assure you I did, we know it now!
Wow, why so defensive?? Somebody makes a historical-context comment and that's cause for you to assume that the writer/speaker has some kind of "elitist attitude" and is "usually...an atheist" to boot?? That's a bit of a stretch, isn't it?
Please don't imply that anyone who chooses to share information (or even simply state the obvious, if they so choose) is labeling other people as "uneducated slobs" or "unwashed masses."
I have a friend who is a stickler for detail and completeness. It's just the way he is; if someone makes a general comment, 95% of the time he'll jump in and add "Yes, but..." and point out an exception to the rule, or why some percentage of people don't agree with what was stated. He's not doing it to be argumentative or to look superior; it just really bothers him if the whole entire big picture about something isn't presented. (I can understand it because I'm the same way to a large extent.) Nobody gets their back up and assumes that my friend thinks that they are stupid or ignorant. It's not like he jumps up and says, "You idiot, don't you know that...." , LOL, and neither did anyone here.
Wow, why so defensive?? Somebody makes a historical-context comment and that's cause for you to assume that the writer has some kind of "elitist attitude" and is "usually...an atheist" to boot?? That's a bit of a stretch, isn't it?
Please don't imply that anyone who chooses to share information (or even simply state the obvious, if they so choose) is labeling other people as "uneducated slobs" or "unwashed masses."
I have a friend who is a stickler for detail and completeness. It's just the way he is; if someone makes a general comment, 95% of the time he'll jump in and add "Yes, but..." and point out an exception to the rule, or why some percentage of people don't agree with what was stated. He's not doing it to be argumentative or to look superior it just bothers him if the whole entire big picture about something isn't presented. Nobody gets their back up and assumes that he thinks they are stupid or ignorant. It's not like he jumps up and says, "You idiot, don't you know that...." , LOL, and neither did anyone here.
Ah, "defensive". The Cardinal Sin of mental health. Straight to h*ll for me!
I'm just sick of it here on CD. You can't tell me there aren't people here who think they know more than everyone else, and that the rest of us, or at least a large subset, don't know about the origins of the Christmas date and traditions. I think they even teach this stuff in "history of religion" in public high school.
I have no idea what other people here think or how they regard others, unless/until they say so in their own written words. Anything else would be simply an assumption. And because assumptions about people can often be wrong, I try not to make them.
The only words I'm responsible for are my own, because I know what I intend/intended by them. I try my best to make my words and meaning clear. But in the end, how other people may interpret them is beyond my control. Especially in an online venue. Even in real life, we all bring some level of our personal accumulated "baggage" to everything we see and hear.
I have no idea what other people here think or how they regard others, unless/until they say so in their own written words. Anything else would be simply an assumption. And because assumptions about people can often be wrong, I try not to make them.
The only words I'm responsible for are my own, because I know what I intend/intended by them. I try my best to make my words and meaning clear. But in the end, how other people may interpret them is beyond my control. Especially in an online venue. Even in real life, we all bring some level of our personal accumulated "baggage" to everything we see and hear.
Point taken, but you are one of the ones who felt the need to "educate" me. None of this "when is Jesus' birthday" has anything to do with the OP's problem, either.
I believe the point was that the celebration of Christmas on December 25th is/was a continuation of the much older, pagan celebration of the winter solstice which occurs on approximately December 21st.
Several of the modern world's Christian rituals and trappings were derived from pagan elements that were simply incorporated into the dogma. For example, the whole "rebirth" concept of Easter.
Actually, it is because St. John the Baptist said: "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire"
St. John the Baptist was a famous prophet in his day - ie a bright light. Nativity of Saint John the Baptist is celebrated on the day that ancient people who have celebrated the summer solstice - June 24th. It is the brightest and longest night of the year. The sunlight begins to fade afterwards.
Christ was considered a tiny light that would grow. Christ did not begin his ministry until he was about 30 years old. Nativity of Christ is December 25th, it is celebrated on the ancient winter solstice day - December 25th. After Christmas the earth gets a second or two of increasing daylight time.
Calendars have changed since Christ's time
Quote:
The Julian calendar was introduced in 45 BC by Julius Caesar. Although it had 12 months, many of its months were shorter than the months in the modern calendar. As such, one Julian year only consisted of 355 days. Before Julius Caesar’s reforms, the year began on the 31st of March. A leap month with 23 or 24 days was also created to keep the calendar properly aligned with the cycle of seasons. The Roman calendar also had a recurring cycle of weeks that is similar to the modern cycle, but each week comprised of eight days. Julius Caesar brought in a number of reforms to the old Roman calendar
Quote:
In his seminal work Ecclesiastical History of the English, the historian Bede described how the Roman Church and Irish Church had divided opinions on the calculation of Easter. At the synod of Wilby, King Oswy heard both sides of the argument and finally decided to vote for the Roman method, which suggested that Easter Day should fall on the first Sunday after the paschal full moon.
Quote:
In the year 1582, Pope Gregory XIII decreed that there should be a change in the Julian calendar. The Gregorian calendar was a theoretical calendar, and it was created from very precise calculations of vernal equinoxes. The Julian calendar was based on the assumption that the duration between vernal equinoxes is 365 ¼ days, but in reality, it is approximate ly 11 minutes less. As such, the Gregorian calendar had three leap days removed every four hundred years. Also, changes were made to the lunar cycle, which helped in the calculation of Easter.
It is very poetic! I know I am beating a dead horse but just wanted to point this out.
My kids only got one present from Santa Clause on Christmas Day - the rest where from us. They also got a present on St. Nick's Day - December 6th (when Polish and German children get Christmas presents) and a present from La Befana (Italian Christmas old lady who followed the Wise Men) on the Epiphany - January 6th (when Italian children get Christmas presents). This way, my kids got to celebrate our grandparents traditions and the American Santa. This way Santa was not the only present giver.
Last edited by YorktownGal; 12-08-2019 at 04:37 PM..
It is/was a mass in celebration of the birth of Christ into the world. Not his actual "birthday".
Telling kids about Santa Claus or St. Nicholas or Father Christmas isn't a lie and shouldn't be characterized in that way.
A lie is a deliberate attempt to deceive usually for personal gain or to avoid punishment.
Santa, elves ("a right jolly old elf"), fairies, trolls, giants, monsters, dragons, witches, wizards, etc, etc. are part of the human imagination.
As such they are real.
Young well-meaning parents, please do not model a sad, sterile and joyless worldview to your children that doesn't include magic, imagination, and unknown dimensions away from dreary every day drudgery that life can become without these magical and enchanting companions of the imagination.
I'm out of reps, but this is right on the spot!
I just hung an antique blown-glass ornament on my Christmas tree. It represents Santa Claus, with a flowing white beard and red suit and hat, holding a small evergreen. It's likely German or maybe from the old Czechoslovakia, and dates back to ten years either side of 1900.
I doubt if all the true child-believers from that time, 1890 to 1910, were harmed in any way by their faithful belief in and awe of Santa Claus. Those children are long gone now, but the fragile but cherished Santa Claus ornament remains, and as long as I can, I will continue to hang it on my tree each year.
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