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Old 04-10-2020, 03:25 AM
 
Location: Free From The Oppressive State
24,521 posts, read 18,187,998 times
Reputation: 29221

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bridge781 View Post
I absolutely think this child’s behavior is awful but I think some people on here are taking it a bit far in saying she needs psychiatric help and better get it fast before she kills someone. Yes some people here did say that.
I"m not even a parent and yet I can see that this child clearly needs help. What the OP is describing is way over the top, even for a "brat". If things like this are not resolved, this child can grow up to be even more destructive.

Though I'm not a parent, I was an angry child, so I can tell you it from a child's perspective. I'm not the OP's child, and our reasons for the anger are different, but as soon as I read "spanked", I knew that was a bad idea.

I left reps, but wanted to commend mollycatherine, publicly. You know your job, and you know it well. You are absolutely right that an angry child is not going to respond in a positive way to physical punishment. It's going to make everything worse. Your initial comment to the OP is very good...I wish you were the one who talked to my parents, not the clueless morons they got their advice from.

There was a very specific reason that I was angry, and I can assure you, physical punishment caused more damage to the relationship between me and my new adopted parents. I was also 4, and could not verbalize why I was angry. They knew the main reason, but they didn't know all of the smaller reasons, and I couldn't tell them, because I didn't know how. And that makes it even more frustrating, because a child that age does not have the ability to explain why they are that angry, and the adults can't understand why we are acting the way we are - it's non stop frustration.

Physical punishment, because "that's how they were raised", was the absolute last thing they should have done, especially considering where I came from before they adopted me. It completely broke my trust in my adoptive parents. I no longer respected them. I did not view them as "someone to go to" in a time of need. I lashed out a lot, as well. Nothing like the OP's child, but I definitely had my moments.

Obviously the OP's child didn't go through what I did, but the fact is, the child is very angry, and it comes to a point where the parent has to seek professional help, figure out what is going on, and then not only apply tactics to prevent this behavior from advancing, but also "fixing" the relationship between parent and child.

This isn't "being a brat", this is something serious going on.
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Old 04-11-2020, 06:37 AM
 
Location: Oregon
313 posts, read 72,846 times
Reputation: 293
Quote:
Originally Posted by parentologist View Post

Apologizing to her profusely over and over is totally inappropriate. A simple, "Oh, sorry." and then if she goes into a rage, offer the calm down room, count to 3, and if you hit it, carry her there.
Alot of really excellent insight here!!
And although I agree apologizing profusely isnt appropriate.. I also dont think a simple 'oh sorry' cuts it either.
EVERYONE needs to feel validated.. and children absolutely learn responses /behaviour from the adults they are around the most. Have you ever heard a child parrot 'oh sorry... oh sorry.. oh sorry' about something they have caused or done? I have! No feelings, no remorse... just that they know they are SUPPOSED to say it when they have done something wrong.

Its important to ADDRESS the reason for the apology (IMHO) - "Im sorry I yelled" or "Im sorry I knocked into you by mistake" and then IF theres a reason, state it "Im sorry I yelled, but you werent listening to me, and it is very important you listen to me, in case of danger" or "Im sorry I knocked into you by mistake. I didnt mean to, it was an accident". Because children NEED to understand the reasons for apologizing, and that mistakes happen and that its ok. But to simply say 'sorry' without explanation gives them NO attachment to the word or sentiment.

Love Love Love the 'one-two-three' technique I use it all the time with my Grandaughter... we get to ONE now, and she hustles
Kacey
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Old 04-11-2020, 08:50 AM
 
5,048 posts, read 3,357,646 times
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Just to also chime in, my adopted granddaughter has been in and out of psych hospitals and mental health facilities since she was 5. She's been in counseling since she was 4. She's been on a variety of pschotropic meds. My son and DIL have been to years of training in dealing with her. She's been diagnosed with just about everything, RAD, PTSD from the birth parents, pre-psychopath, etc. All the good parenting strategies and support can't always turn off the genetics and early abuse/neglect. It's very sad and a continuing dangerous situation for the whole family.
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Old 04-11-2020, 11:29 AM
 
Location: Wisconsin
18,451 posts, read 19,201,925 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KaraG View Post
Just to also chime in, my adopted granddaughter has been in and out of psych hospitals and mental health facilities since she was 5. She's been in counseling since she was 4. She's been on a variety of pschotropic meds. My son and DIL have been to years of training in dealing with her. She's been diagnosed with just about everything, RAD, PTSD from the birth parents, pre-psychopath, etc.
All the good parenting strategies and support can't always turn off the genetics and early abuse/neglect. It's very sad and a continuing dangerous situation for the whole family.
Great points.
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Old 04-15-2020, 05:17 PM
 
5,171 posts, read 4,462,029 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KaraG View Post
Just to also chime in, my adopted granddaughter has been in and out of psych hospitals and mental health facilities since she was 5. She's been in counseling since she was 4. She's been on a variety of pschotropic meds. My son and DIL have been to years of training in dealing with her. She's been diagnosed with just about everything, RAD, PTSD from the birth parents, pre-psychopath, etc. All the good parenting strategies and support can't always turn off the genetics and early abuse/neglect. It's very sad and a continuing dangerous situation for the whole family.
Unfortunately, I have seen this so many times in adopted children, even those who were adopted at birth. With birth mothers and their families able to keep the children without stigma nowadays, there are really only two scenarios I see for adoption of newborns. One is a single mother from a pretty bad family, who dreams of a better life for her newborn, and does a semi-open adoption where she can choose the couple she gives the baby to - financially stable, well-educated, mom can stay home, people who come across as warm and loving, basically, the situation SHE wishes that SHE had been born into. This is pretty rare nowadays. The other is young children and newborns being removed from horrible situations - both parents mentally ill drug addicts/criminals - and every relative on either side, for three generations up to the great grandparents, and out to the second cousins, are all mentally ill drug addicts or criminals, so that there is NO blood relative whom the State would allow to take the child. So rights get terminated and the child goes to adoption. These kids are little bundles of ticking time bombs. Mental illness and extraordinarily severe behavior problems start to show up, sometimes as young as two years old, always by pre-adolescence. It has nothing to do with the adoption. There was no abuse or neglect. It's all genetics.

I also see this in many adoptions from Eastern Europe. Not at all in adoptions from China, because these were the unfortunate result of the One Child policy, not the result of mental illness in the parents.
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Old 04-15-2020, 06:42 PM
 
Location: Pacific Northwest
438 posts, read 206,951 times
Reputation: 2081
Quote:
Originally Posted by parentologist View Post
It has nothing to do with the adoption. There was no abuse or neglect. It's all genetics.
As someone who is adopted I would like to point out that the statement is a little misguided and not considering the trauma and emotional unbalance that is absolutely a result of adoption.

I was adopted at birth and grew up dealing with abandonment and identity issues due to my adoption. From the time I was an infant I had to get help managing my anxiety and issues dealing with being alone or "taken" from my parents. This would result in extreme mood swings if I felt someone would leave the room, not being able to sleep alone, having trouble making friends because I would get so emotional when we had to leave.

This isn't to say some kinda of mental illness aren't genetic as they absolutely can be. But most older children and even children rehomed in infancy can develop a wide variety of mental health issues due to being separated from their parents.

There is information out there on the topic as adoption has come under the spotlight in recent years. Some pretty interesting studies actually show that international adoptions result is less outward bad behavior because they're forced to adapt more, but they suffer from depression and hold it in more. Meanwhile the domestic adoptions such as my own tend to result in behavior and attachment/relationship issues more so.

https://www.swiftriver.com/adoption-...health-issues/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4475346/

https://www.sovhealth.com/mental-hea...s-study-shows/

https://www.claudiablackcenter.com/a...-young-adults/
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Old 04-15-2020, 08:37 PM
 
Location: Free From The Oppressive State
24,521 posts, read 18,187,998 times
Reputation: 29221
Quote:
Originally Posted by parentologist View Post
Unfortunately, I have seen this so many times in adopted children, even those who were adopted at birth. With birth mothers and their families able to keep the children without stigma nowadays, there are really only two scenarios I see for adoption of newborns. One is a single mother from a pretty bad family, who dreams of a better life for her newborn, and does a semi-open adoption where she can choose the couple she gives the baby to - financially stable, well-educated, mom can stay home, people who come across as warm and loving, basically, the situation SHE wishes that SHE had been born into. This is pretty rare nowadays. The other is young children and newborns being removed from horrible situations - both parents mentally ill drug addicts/criminals - and every relative on either side, for three generations up to the great grandparents, and out to the second cousins, are all mentally ill drug addicts or criminals, so that there is NO blood relative whom the State would allow to take the child. So rights get terminated and the child goes to adoption. These kids are little bundles of ticking time bombs. Mental illness and extraordinarily severe behavior problems start to show up, sometimes as young as two years old, always by pre-adolescence. It has nothing to do with the adoption. There was no abuse or neglect. It's all genetics.

I also see this in many adoptions from Eastern Europe. Not at all in adoptions from China, because these were the unfortunate result of the One Child policy, not the result of mental illness in the parents.
You say "there was no abuse or neglect", but the way you worded what you just wrote makes it appear as if you're lumping all adopted kids, who do not go to any blood family, as the same, and blaming it on genetics.

The bolded is nothing but baloney. I was in that situation - no blood relatives, because they all sucked. I went to a brand new family. Any issues I had were not due to genetics. It's very destructive to assume that all of the kids who were adopted out to an entirely different family are going to go off like a bomb because of "genetics". That's simply untrue.

None of this has anything to do with the OP's post, anyway. I saw nowhere in his original post that his child was adopted.
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Old 04-16-2020, 12:44 PM
 
237 posts, read 51,747 times
Reputation: 561
Where is the OP?

Be nice if he came back to give us an update.
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Old 04-16-2020, 06:44 PM
 
281 posts, read 162,328 times
Reputation: 663
Quote:
Originally Posted by parentologist View Post
OP, I know I'm late chiming in. Pro with over 25 yrs experience. Your daughter's behavior is very far outside the norm. I feel for you, your wife. Yes, the new baby will be in danger. I do think that your daughter has a mood disorder, BECAUSE IT HAPPENS AT DAYCARE, TOO. If she were fine at daycare, and a monster at home, it would be a behavioral management issue. But they probably have great behavioral management at daycare, they're pros at it, and she's losing it there, too. This is a mental health issue, a mood disorder, and it's probably going to warrant medication for her with a mood stabilizer like Abilify (yeah I can just hear the screaming from others who are recommending cutting out sugar and putting her on vitamins), therapy for you all, and very, very careful monitoring of her around the baby. Is there anyone in the family on either side with bipolar disorder, schizophrenia, or severe depression, or a history of these angry rages, even if they outgrew them? We are entirely a reflection of our genetic makeup, so I'd start asking the family, on both sides. But right now, you're going to have a very hard time getting help, because of the lockdown.
Also BPD

Quote:
You need a safe timeout room for your daughter, that has nothing in it other than a mattress on the floor. Absolutely nothing else in it, other than soft things like a beanbag chair (that cannot be unzipped and emptied or shredded) or anything else that she can hit, punch, take her rage out on. You need a baby monitor with camera up high in it, or another home camera, that she cannot reach or break, so that you can see her. The longer you can keep it from her, that there's a camera in there to watch her, the better. And the room needs a lock on the outside. You see, she KNOWS that you are there, holding the door shut, as an audience for her tantrum. If she knew that no one was there to hear her, she'd calm herself much, much more quickly.

If you can make this room NOT be her bedroom, that would be best, so that she has her toys and stuffed animals and bed in another room that is not associated with rages. If you already have a room set up for the baby, I'd empty it, turn it into the timeout room, and keep the new baby in with you for a long, long time.

I think that all the behavioral management techniques in the world will not help, but here goes. You need to send a clear message that you and your wife are in charge, not her, and don't let her know that her behavior upsets you. You need to stay totally calm. It is your reaction that she is seeking. So you don't react. When she starts to rage, don't apologize or try to placate her. Say, calmly, "Daughter, you need to calm down. Do you want to calm down here, or in the calm down room?" The first time, she'll escalate. Next: "Daughter, we're going to the calm down room. Do you want to walk there, or should I carry you there?" She'll escalate more. Fortunately, at this stage in her life, you are much bigger than she is. You pick her up in a way that she cannot hurt you, probably from behind, around her waist. She'll start screaming, maybe saying that she'll walk. You say, "That's okay, next time you'll walk." You carry her to the calm down room (and believe me, if it could be padded, it should be, but you cannot accomplish that right now), you put her in, lock door from outside, say calmly, "I'll be back when you calm down", and you LEAVE, but you've got to keep an eye on what's going on in there. First time, she'll scream and kick for an hour, then cry herself to sleep. Let her. If she makes herself vomit, don't go back in. Only if she is doing REAL harm to herself, like is really trying to break the window in there, do you run in - and then you board up the window and continue. When she wakes up, it will be over. Or if she DOES calm down, go back in. NO talking about what just happened. Just unlock door and let her out and pretend it never happened. NO POSTMORTEM with her, talking about what happened, why it happened, why it cannot happen again, isn't she sorry, NOTHING. You act like nothing happened. If when you open the door she starts raging again, put her right back in and leave until she's calm, then let her out. If she falls asleep in there, leave her alone until she wakes up and comes out (but unlock door when she falls asleep).
I'm no qualified expert - just a parent - but my gut is telling me that for some kids, especially younger ones, treating them this way could be traumatic in and of itself. I could see this being a good strategy for an older kid. But it reminds me of leaving a baby to "cry it out". I mean, if the child gets to the point that she's vomiting, she's beyond being able to self-regulate. So they would have to leave her in there on her own until she escalates - then climaxes and exhausts herself. I think if the parents did this - locking her in a room and leaving her- they might be tasking her with using self-regulation skills that she simply hasn't developed yet. Which could easily break that trust that the OP seems to have from his child. Currently, his child loves him and trusts him, and her mother. That's one thing they DO have going for them, and this foundation of trust and love that they have now will help during the teenage years when things get more precarious. I don't know, I could see that if the parents did this, it could be really damaging to the parent-child relationship. Not definitely - every situation is different - but potentially.

That being said, we have done a milder version of this. We removed everything from our child's room except the bed. When we tried locking her in there, she still managed to kick holes in the door and wall at that age, since there wasn't anything else to destroy. With time, therapy, and practice, she did gradually learn better coping skills, and then the kicking holes stopped.

BUT. What helped us the most wasn't locking her in a room. In our personal (not professional) experience, that was a surefire way to make the situation escalate; it angered her even more. But when we flipped it around and WE started *leaving the situation* until she calmed herself down, that was much more effective. It also teaches the child that when you are being mistreated, you should get away from that person. Which I think is a good example to set for a child.

Also, what should the OP do when they aren't home, and there is no safe room to put her in?
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Old 04-16-2020, 06:45 PM
 
281 posts, read 162,328 times
Reputation: 663
Quote:
Originally Posted by RubyandPearl View Post
Where is the OP?

Be nice if he came back to give us an update.
Yes, how are you doing?
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