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Old 04-01-2020, 10:15 AM
 
Location: NJ
13,191 posts, read 22,917,680 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by English Ivy View Post
Yes, they still diagnose ODD. There is no medication for it specifically, per our pediatrician and one therapist. Behavioral therapy is the treatment protocol for ODD. But ODD is not often diagnosed by itself, it's usually tacked on to other disorders (depending on age).
Wasn't sure it was still being diagnosed. My daughter was born in 93.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mattie View Post
OP, I have no experience with what you are dealing with, but I thought of you when I read this article online today:
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/how-t...b66ea70fda8084
Have to say that it's worth trying, especially with the baby coming.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BirdieBelle View Post
Exactly, and they often start with ADD and recommend medication, but not always for a 4-year-old.

That's what makes this kind of thing SO hard to grasp. When you're dealing with a child who isn't able to express themselves as an adult, going by the symptoms is your main course of action. But her symptoms could be caused by many things, so it feels like a moving target.
That could be part of it too, that they can't express what they're feeling.
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Old 04-01-2020, 10:42 AM
 
Location: Wilmington NC
5,928 posts, read 5,661,960 times
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I hope you don't end up with a baby named 'Stupid Head!"

You've gotten a lot of good advice here. I feel your pain, I have a daughter who was moody and volatile and violent at times. She is now 19 and benefiting from ADD meds and Mood Disorder meds. SHe is now a delightful human being but I still worry constantly about her mental health.

You sound like great parents! Keep up the good work!
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Old 04-01-2020, 10:56 AM
 
Location: Raleigh
9,659 posts, read 7,231,544 times
Reputation: 13633
Quote:
Originally Posted by English Ivy View Post
Yes, they still diagnose ODD. There is no medication for it specifically, per our pediatrician and one therapist. Behavioral therapy is the treatment protocol for ODD. But ODD is not often diagnosed by itself, it's usually tacked on to other disorders (depending on age).
It doesn't really sound like ODD though...Per the OP it seems like it's extreme overreaction to what should be minor speedbumps, lacking the spitefulness or argumentativeness with ODD...again, keyboard warrior here.
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Old 04-01-2020, 11:03 AM
 
12,765 posts, read 21,415,746 times
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One other thing is a lot of doctors are doing video or telephone appointments. You don’t have to wait till Covid blows over to seek a solution.
__________________
Solly says — Be nice!
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Old 04-01-2020, 12:01 PM
 
10,993 posts, read 9,164,036 times
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No diagnosis from me, but from 28 years of working with kids of all stripes, a number of ideas and suggestions:

First, establish a daily activity schedule and let her know five minutes before it's time to change activities. As she does better in daycare, it may be that she is escalating presently due to all the changes and resulting lack of knowing what's coming next.

So, when she's the calm, sweet child she is when not overwhelmed by all the intensity and acting out, sit down with her and tell her you need her help with making a schedule since she's home from daycare now. She sounds as if she needs structure and engaging hands-on activities to keep her productively occupied and calm.

You start the schedule off with listing breakfast, getting dressed, brushing teeth, in whatever order these happen at your house. After that, ask her what should come next, and give her two choices: art time or riding her tricycle or scooter or bike or Big Wheel or whatever outside if the weather is nice? If she offers a different choice, fine, go with it if it's safe and not too outlandish.

Write it on the schedule, which should be a largish poster board. Put each activity on its own line, and post the schedule in the kitchen. You can use stars or smiley faces for activities that go well - leave the not so successful activities blank. Tell her that she can earn stars. You will be rewarding her behavior, not her skill or lack thereof with the various activities.

Back to planning: You get to choose the next activity. Then it's her turn. And so on. Once the daily schedule is made, try to stick to it as much as you can, and when it's time to conclude one thing and move on, be sure to state clearly and calmly, with a note of anticipation in your voice, that it's almost time to finish up (whatever), so we can have fun (playing, drawing, whatever the next activity will be).

Typical activities could be calling a friend or relative, story time, playing dolls (with a parent - great way to act out scenarios), computer time, playing indoor games, (Candyland is designed for young children), playing outdoor games, bouncing or rolling a big ball or tossing it back and forth outside, helping get ready for lunch (she can be taught to set the table or if that's too much still, place napkins at each place). Artwork can include finger-painting, drawing with colored pencils, pens, or crayons, and making things from modeling clay. Make a dollhouse out of boxes she decorates. Make funny hats out of paper plates. Sidewalk chalk. Have her draw or paint a rainbow to go in the front window.

Just don't throw all these described activities at her at once, or it will be too much for her to process. Keep her choices to two suggested by you, and she gets to choose, then you get to choose.

Other activities would include playing dress-up with Mom's heels and long skirts. Pretend she's the parent and you are the child - might be very revealing!

Pretend she is the daycare teacher and her teddys and dolls are her students. Have a tea-party for her teddy bears and other stuffed toys. Dancing with her to whatever music she likes, (sneak in some slow waltzes or other soft but rhythmic music so she won't get so wild). Get her a jump-rope. If you have a suitable tree, rig up a rope and board swing or use an old pillow and make a one-rope bag swing or tire swing.

Be sure to include a healthy mid-morning snack, with water to drink. Kids can get easily dehydrated without realizing it.

Baking cookies - slice and bake plus sprinkle on decorations are fine. Simple counting games. Count all her dolls, then all her stuffed toys (on two different days). Mother Goose rhymes - how many does she know? Does she know the melodies? Sing together, even if you can't carry a tune. Play recorded children's songs for her. Tell her stories about when you were a little boy and/or when mommy was a little girl. Reading aloud to her and talking about the illustrations in picture books. Have her re-tell the story to you. Let her pore over the picture book after you've read it to her for as long as she likes, until it's time for the next activity..

Also, be sure give her a realistic, bath-safe baby doll with lots of clothes and accessories (to expand play options) when her little brother arrives, so she can copy her parents in tending to her own "new baby".

Key here is to always give her ample warning when activities are ending and a new activity is starting. "Five minutes" doesn't mean much to a young child, but if you tell her "It's almost time to put these things away now, so we can...(do whatever comes next)", and then follow up with "It's time...), you may see a difference. If you have an hour glass or an oven timer or even an alarm clock you can set, this may help.

Also be sure to include quiet time or naptime at mid-morning and early afternoon. Read "The Sleepy Book" by Margaret Wise Brown to get her in the mood (if you can locate a copy - closure of libraries is a necessary hardship for many, especially young children, at present)..

I hope these ideas will help - children I worked with over those many years included a number of bounce-off-the-walls types with little self-regulatory control, and the five minute warnings were a survival skill I quickly learned made a real difference in their ability to transition from one thing to another without losing it.

Good luck - don't lose heart, and hang in there.

Last edited by CraigCreek; 04-01-2020 at 12:13 PM..
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Old 04-01-2020, 12:13 PM
 
Location: Brentwood, Tennessee
48,491 posts, read 46,763,528 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JONOV View Post

It doesn't really sound like ODD though...Per the OP it seems like it's extreme overreaction to what should be minor speedbumps, lacking the spitefulness or argumentativeness with ODD....
These things are what triggered the ODD category to me, and some of them do sound spiteful and manipulative:

Quote:
Originally Posted by daddy2dd View Post

She will try to flip furniture, pull curtains off the walls, knock over end tables, slam doors.

As soon as I, or my wife, touch her, she will start hitting, scratching, kicking, and biting us. She drew blood yesterday on my wife's arms. As I type I this, I have scabs on the tops of both of my hands.

If I try to restrain her, she'll scream that we're choking her and try to spit on us.

She'll fight to free herself until she passes out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by daddy2dd View Post

She started purposefully trying to kick me, slamming her cup on the table and calling me rude. I told her I would cut the movie off if she kicked me again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by daddy2dd View Post


... we did have to come get her on one occasion when she scratched up the director's arms.

She got particularly mad at my wife one night and threatened to "kick the baby in the head."
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Old 04-01-2020, 12:17 PM
 
7,826 posts, read 3,772,319 times
Reputation: 20563
1: behavior modification
2: change in diets- no sugars. All naturals. No salts. Get child vitamins.
3: environment - low key. Quietness. Less tv. Less noise. Less over stimulation.
4: maintain a schedule.
5: some aromas can soothe them too. My granddaughters enjoy their lavender pillows. They settle when sitting with them.

My nephew had these horrendous bouts. Sadly he was immediately doped up, labelled ADD, and from there plactated by society....poor poor dear...has ADD. By his teen years he was one step away from being institutionalized. I caution you that simply getting diagnosed won't change the child. It just gives them an out in life.
I wholeheartedly believe children learn by the environment they are in. This behavior was learned ...when a parent delved out harm the child gets the message it's okay too. Stop that. Start with new methods.
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Old 04-01-2020, 12:28 PM
 
10,993 posts, read 9,164,036 times
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Meant to include to adhere to the schedule for at least a week or two before making changes. Let it become routine and habitual, so she knows what is coming next and what to expect. Don't create a new schedule every day, stick with the initial one. You can make minor tweaks after giving it a fair chance. Inevitably, there will be disruptions, but talk with her about it and let her know that once the disruption is over, you are going back to whatever was interrupted.

If you can set aside a room or an area for indoor activities, that will also help - sort of a homeschool classroom. Set up a little table and chair for her there and keep her "school" supplies handy.
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Old 04-02-2020, 11:29 AM
 
Location: Oregon
340 posts, read 77,386 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daddy2dd View Post
Hello.

I have a 4 year old daughter who is very aggressive and destructive when angry and I can't figure out how to make it stop. Anything can set her off. Yesterday morning, it was because I parked the car on a driveway chalk drawing she did a day before. Usually, it's when she doesn't get her way or if she's very tired.

Here is my dilemma. When she gets angry she lashes out on the environment. She will try to flip furniture, pull curtains off the walls, knock over end tables, slam doors. Very recently, she ran off down the street. Obviously, I can't let her do that so I have to physically stop her. As soon as I, or my wife, touch her, she will start hitting, scratching, kicking, and biting us. She drew blood yesterday on my wife's arms. As I type I this, I have scabs on the tops of both of my hands. If I try to restrain her, she'll scream that we're choking her and try to spit on us. She'll fight to free herself until she passes out. So, you can see my problem. I can't let her destroy the house, but I also can't physically stop her without being attacked myself.

We have tried everything: spanking (which only makes her angrier), timeouts (she will not stay in the timeout spot and will fight you to get out), taking things away, talking to her after when she finally gets calm. When she is in the red zone, it's like she can't even hear us talking. There is nothing that can stop her.

Lately, my only method is to take her upstairs to a spare bedroom and sit against the door so she can't leave (while inside room with her). She will repetitively scream "go away" or "stupid head" over and over for at least an hour while trying to get out of the room. It only stops when she completely fatigues herself. I don't even know how she still has a voice when it is done. By the end we are scraped up, tired and wondering why we decided bring a second child into this.

I need a new strategy but don't have any better ideas. I can't let her destroy things and I can't let her hit me. But if I stop one, I get the other.
I am so very sorry you are having to go through this!
My son (who was born in 1994) was diagnosed with ADHD/ODD. I 'knew' something wasnt right (he was my 3rd child) and after 7 years of the tantrums (the kicking the walls, name calling, slammed bedroom doors over and over for 3 and 4 hours before he exhausted himself) the pediatrician FINALLY sent us to the behavioural psychologist.. who diagnosed him. We put him on Adderall (it was 20 mg pill - but because of the ODD he refused to take it, so he was also prescribed a 5 mg 'salt tab' which melted on contact with his tongue. As he was screaming at me that he wasnt going to take his medication, I would take careful aim and lob his salt tab into his mouth... within about 5 min, he had calmed down enough to take his medication.)
His behaviour improved enormously. I was shocked!
The ODD truly is OPPOSITIONAL DEFIANCE. I would say 'please tidy your room 'and the response would be "im not going to and you cant make me' If I said 'please do NOT clean your room.. I will do it later' the response would be "Im going to and you cant stop me!". Literally.

It also was (as another poster mentioned) flying off the handle and misinterpreting other peoples actions/intentions. If another kid bumped into him by accident, he would fly off the handle and pound on the other kid to retaliate. If someone said 'whats up?' he would take it as them insulting him. It was very difficult. But NOW he is a good kid.. all grown up

But... then my 4 year old grandaughter came along. SHE has SPD (sensory processing disorder). And... shes been diagnosed with high functioning autism (it used to be called 'aspergers' - which her dad has). Her behaviour sounds so much like your situation. The tossing furniture, major melt down tantrums, calling names and EVERYONE is 'rude' to her apparently.

The meltdowns are when: She doesnt get her way.. when she is not in control... when she is asked to do something she doesnt want to do... when she is tired... when she is hungry.
We have her on a fairly strict diet (type of food.. not calories) - its helped.
We give her choices... it has helped.
We reward her with stickers, and stars on the white board... it has helped.
When she is having a major tantrum (the kind where she throws things or scratches her own legs and arms) we hold her tight in a bear hug and rock her. It REALLY helps.
We make sure her days are very regimented (Im doing homeschool with her during this virus as her preschool has shut down) and I keep her on a schedule, much like school with snack time, meal times, outside play time, etcetcetc

My daughter discovered the SPD facebook group and they have helped a ton! LISTEN TO YOUR GUT!!
Youll get through this.. its going to be a tough road... but man oh man, when its over and she is grown and you look back.. you will realise you really ARE a wonderful parent....even if it doesnt feel like it at the moment.
Hope that helps
Kacey
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Old 04-02-2020, 03:17 PM
 
5,845 posts, read 8,642,669 times
Reputation: 6379
Quote:
Originally Posted by daddy2dd View Post
Hello.

I have a 4 year old daughter who is very aggressive and destructive when angry and I can't figure out how to make it stop. Anything can set her off. Yesterday morning, it was because I parked the car on a driveway chalk drawing she did a day before. Usually, it's when she doesn't get her way or if she's very tired.

Here is my dilemma. When she gets angry she lashes out on the environment. She will try to flip furniture, pull curtains off the walls, knock over end tables, slam doors. Very recently, she ran off down the street. Obviously, I can't let her do that so I have to physically stop her. As soon as I, or my wife, touch her, she will start hitting, scratching, kicking, and biting us. She drew blood yesterday on my wife's arms. As I type I this, I have scabs on the tops of both of my hands. If I try to restrain her, she'll scream that we're choking her and try to spit on us. She'll fight to free herself until she passes out. So, you can see my problem. I can't let her destroy the house, but I also can't physically stop her without being attacked myself.

We have tried everything: spanking (which only makes her angrier), timeouts (she will not stay in the timeout spot and will fight you to get out), taking things away, talking to her after when she finally gets calm. When she is in the red zone, it's like she can't even hear us talking. There is nothing that can stop her.

Lately, my only method is to take her upstairs to a spare bedroom and sit against the door so she can't leave (while inside room with her). She will repetitively scream "go away" or "stupid head" over and over for at least an hour while trying to get out of the room. It only stops when she completely fatigues herself. I don't even know how she still has a voice when it is done. By the end we are scraped up, tired and wondering why we decided bring a second child into this.

I need a new strategy but don't have any better ideas. I can't let her destroy things and I can't let her hit me. But if I stop one, I get the other.
Sounds like she needs medical intervention.
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