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Old 04-07-2020, 11:54 AM
 
Location: Wisconsin
18,451 posts, read 19,206,858 times
Reputation: 46286

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Quote:
Originally Posted by nobodysbusiness View Post
How was she able to vomit on demand, though?
While it is somewhat unusual, some children are able to vomit on command and/or will vomit involuntarily when they are having a severe meltdown.

Last edited by germaine2626; 04-07-2020 at 12:26 PM..
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Old 04-07-2020, 01:20 PM
 
281 posts, read 162,328 times
Reputation: 663
Quote:
Originally Posted by daddy2dd View Post
My wife is taking off tomorrow and making the necessary phone calls. But I just don't understand why my daughter is so upset. I bought and read the damn explosive child book. Describes her to a T. Zero advice on how to handle her at red zone. I understand avoiding it is key but today her and I were washing the truck together and I accidentally sprayed her with the hose. I apologized over and over but she ran off down the street calling me stupid. Neighbors coming out to ask if she's ok. I was so embarrassed. I had to carry her home punching me in the face. How can I plan to avoid spraying her with the hose?
That's ridiculous. I need redline advice not advice on how to collaborate with a 4 year old. It's just a matter of priority. I'm sorry but I've had a bad day.
Once she is in the red zone, there is nothing you can do but wait it out. By that point her primitive brain has taken over and she can't think.

I don't know how safe your street is - so this may be horrible advice. But when my kid was about four, that's when I stopped chasing after her. Whenever she ran off, she would lose her privileges to go outside for the rest of the day. But that was pre-pandemic, and we're in a very safe area and know the neighbors. If that's not feasible for you, can you get a lock to put on the inside of the front door to keep her from running down the street?

The only things that have helped us so far are: highly structured environment, practicing emotional regulation and mindfulness skills (with a therapist), lots of breaks for parents (which is impossible now with the covid pandemic), consistent expectations with consistent consequences, lots of quality time together, love, and praise. And time. Some things are better now (my kid no longer runs off) but other things are worse.

I'm sorry you're going through this. I wish I had a step by step, foolproof solution for you.
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Old 04-07-2020, 03:41 PM
 
1,959 posts, read 567,322 times
Reputation: 1505
You seem really level headed. I’d absolutely have spanked this child by now or perhaps sent her to live with my parents for a while. I’m no child expert but she sounds like a big brat. I feel mad reading what you’ve been putting up with. Take everything away from her until she gets it. There’s no way you’re going to get the help you need right now with all that’s going on.
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Old 04-07-2020, 04:17 PM
 
85 posts, read 20,739 times
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I like the idea of taping the next meltdown on your phone and sending it to the pediatrician.

For what it's worth, my son was "difficult" for me at that age and was diagnosed with a developmental speech delay and then ADHD in kindergarten. I did not want to medicate him. He was a bright child--your daughter sounds very bright too--and very ADHD and school was a nightmare for the whole K-12 experience. Well, he actually dropped out senior year and then got a GED.

Looking back, I really wish I had gotten help for all of us sooner, and especially for him--as an adult he struggles now with anxiety and depression. He is a lovely man and a very good father, and wish I had done things better for him, and gotten him more help. I have to live with the guilt that I feel I failed him; you don't.

There were days I did not think I would survive. It's not that he was that violent or that focused in his opposition--but he was so hyperactive, with the epic trantrums and the suffering, and the wild impulsivity--at 3 he figured out how to get out on the roof and would climb out there; I had to lock all the windows. I know he suffered.

Please tape the next outburst and get your pediatrician involved, pandemic or not. There is help for your family.
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Old 04-07-2020, 04:56 PM
 
Location: Central IL
16,786 posts, read 9,983,411 times
Reputation: 39734
Quote:
Originally Posted by germaine2626 View Post
While it is somewhat unusual, some children are able to vomit on command and/or will vomit involuntarily when they are having a severe meltdown.
My sister was...and it was a great attention-getter. So much so that she was periodically bulemic for months at a time - very bad "habit" that can be hard to break.
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Old 04-07-2020, 05:28 PM
 
8,206 posts, read 12,243,986 times
Reputation: 11134
Quote:
Originally Posted by mollycatherine View Post
She needs professional help. Speaking as a pediatric OT, this does not sound like sensory processing disorder. What it sounds like is a mental health issue, potentially trauma-induced. Continue with the counseling and pursue a neuropsychological assessment as soon as you can get in.

In the meantime, stop hitting her. Start looking up mindfulness, Zones of Regulation (you're already using this curriculum's Red Zone terminology), and other self-regulation techniques for preschoolers. Play games like freeze dance and red light green light for impulse control. Spend lots of one-on-one time playing with her. Praise and reward her for positive behaviors and helping. Build up her self-esteem. Create a Calm Corner she can retreat to to calm down - a cozy little nook, something like a beanbag chair in a pop-up tent that can be her safe space. Have her practice going there and relaxing at times she's already calm. Talk about emotions. Name yours. Name hers. Narrate things you do to calm and regulate yourself. When she escalates, stay calm and even with a low, slow voice. Give her space and get down low, at her level. Minimize language. Avoid communicating your own agitation or stress at the situation, as it will only feed hers.
Sounds great but I don't know how the OP is supposed to do this when the child wants to run down the street or is tearing down the drapes.

Hopefully a lot of practice of emotional techniques during down time will eventually help. Meantime.....
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Old 04-07-2020, 06:39 PM
 
78 posts, read 27,773 times
Reputation: 334
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bridge781 View Post
You seem really level headed. I’d absolutely have spanked this child by now or perhaps sent her to live with my parents for a while. I’m no child expert but she sounds like a big brat. I feel mad reading what you’ve been putting up with. Take everything away from her until she gets it. There’s no way you’re going to get the help you need right now with all that’s going on.
Clearly. This advice(?) is absolutely useless for the child he has described and will only serve to make matters worse. Discipline is not the answer to mental health problems.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Giesela View Post
Sounds great but I don't know how the OP is supposed to do this when the child wants to run down the street or is tearing down the drapes.

Hopefully a lot of practice of emotional techniques during down time will eventually help. Meantime.....
Yep, that's why I started off by, as you quoted, telling him he needs to seek professional advice as soon as possible. Then I prefaced the rest of it with "in the meantime" - the same wording you chose. It sounds like you're criticizing my post but I don't see anything we disagree on? You're also responding to a post from over a week ago and there have been multiple updates since that have made it even clearer how dire the situation is.

To recap, professional mental health assessment is an immediate, vital need for this child and family. No number of strategies from books or the internet will be enough to fix what is going on here.
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Old 04-07-2020, 08:24 PM
 
10,983 posts, read 9,154,620 times
Reputation: 20208
After reading your updates, OP, I think my previous suggestions are not apt for your situation. Like others here, I hope you'll get a thorough medical and psychological work-up for your daughter as soon as possible, then follow whatever suggestions are made at that point. If that helps, then go back and try some of what I suggested earlier.

While my suggestions were good as far as they went, they didn't address the issue of dealing with a small child who is raging so severely that she is endangering both herself and others. So set them aside for what I hope will be later use.

Best wishes to you and your family - I am so sorry for all the suffering all of you are enduring, and hope that some real answers will be forthcoming asap.
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Old 04-07-2020, 08:27 PM
 
1,959 posts, read 567,322 times
Reputation: 1505
I was probably harsh but can a 4 yr old child really have mental health problems? At this age there’s autism which it doesn’t sound like she has but given that she seems to know what she’s doing maybe she just knows how to manipulate him. She knows she can get away with what she’s doing so why stop.
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Old 04-07-2020, 08:41 PM
 
2,023 posts, read 2,069,672 times
Reputation: 2072
Quote:
Originally Posted by mollycatherine View Post
She needs professional help. Speaking as a pediatric OT, this does not sound like sensory processing disorder. What it sounds like is a mental health issue, potentially trauma-induced. Continue with the counseling and pursue a neuropsychological assessment as soon as you can get in.

In the meantime, stop hitting her. Start looking up mindfulness, Zones of Regulation (you're already using this curriculum's Red Zone terminology), and other self-regulation techniques for preschoolers. Play games like freeze dance and red light green light for impulse control. Spend lots of one-on-one time playing with her. Praise and reward her for positive behaviors and helping. Build up her self-esteem. Create a Calm Corner she can retreat to to calm down - a cozy little nook, something like a beanbag chair in a pop-up tent that can be her safe space. Have her practice going there and relaxing at times she's already calm. Talk about emotions. Name yours. Name hers. Narrate things you do to calm and regulate yourself. When she escalates, stay calm and even with a low, slow voice. Give her space and get down low, at her level. Minimize language. Avoid communicating your own agitation or stress at the situation, as it will only feed hers.
This is great advice. I have a child who acted like this. The above is basically the advice we got from many hours of counseling. Therapist would have one parent at a time play with her while therapist watched through one way glass and coached us. Really we were pretty much doing most of it already, but it helped to be more intentional. She was diagnosed as dyslexic and ADHD at age 5. She has almost never had behavior problems at school. Today she is 12 and thriving socially, academically and is VERY into sports. I think sports became her outlet for this frustration/energy, desire to win!, whatever it is. She is still somewhat difficult when things don't go her way (as when, for example, everything gets canceled bc of a pandemic!), and I've learned to just say No when I have to, engage her in the rule-making process when possible, and to pick my battles. Second child is much more laid back and agreeable, but he isn't as driven as she seems to be. All this to say, for my daughter at least, it did get better. It did get easier. Hang in there!

I would add make sure she eats regularly. Hunger is a big trigger for my daughter to this day. Also she likes to accomplish goals--learning to do a flip on the trampoline, for example. She craves mastery, she wants to win, but wants to earn it. Not sure if this will carry over to your daughter but it may.
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