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Old 10-19-2020, 02:46 PM
 
Location: Leaving Tacoma, WA Soon!
282 posts, read 249,412 times
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ShallowHal, you are too kind. All of us equestrians try to spread the horse bug far and wide, infecting new kids is the way to go lol This is just my part. And I enjoy it! The trainer at the barn understands the home issues which is great.

I usually present a united front so the instructor will be a part of the massage for sure
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Old 10-19-2020, 04:12 PM
 
Location: Wisconsin
19,159 posts, read 20,413,899 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shallow Hal View Post
Fassopony, thank you so much for doing this for these children. You have no idea what a wonderful impact this can have on them in so many ways. I would hate for them to lose out on this opportunity but am aghast at the danger they were in and other riders with their lack of sleep. The horses get confused as well and can act in unpredictable ways through no fault of their own.

Would it be possible and carry more weight if the instructors had a talk with the kids and explained all the safety issues and how it can be very dangerous, not only for them but for the animals and other people. Dealing with large animals like this entails great responsibility etc. etc. The children need to be alert and vigilant. Maybe have them sign a short contract with consequences spelled out. It's heartbreaking for the kids to lose out on such a tremendous opportunity for them, again directly related to the mother's negligence/abuse. Sadly, you have to wonder what programs they're watching until 3:00 a.m. Keep us posted and I really hope that something can be worked out as this opportunity is amazing and could teach them so many of life's useful lessons.

So maybe the instructor's message would have more impact and you wouldn't have to put yourself in the position of putting Mom on the defensive. The onus would be removed from you. I'm just so impressed by your gift to them.
Excellent points.
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Old 10-20-2020, 12:05 PM
 
2,214 posts, read 1,355,168 times
Reputation: 7743
Quote:
Originally Posted by ss20ts View Post
You don't get to dictate when the kids go to bed. You may just have to explain to the mother that they need to be well rested for safety reasons and if they aren't then they can't ride. To me this would be the one and only warning. If it happens again, I'd say they're all done with horses - ALL of the kids.
Sort of this, but give them the chance to fix their behavior. Since they're not staying with you, there's no way you can dictate, enforce, or even check on bed times. Well, except for G'ma narc.

Actually, since these kids are 9 and 10, I'd put it on them. They're old enough to take responsibility and tell mom they need to go to be so they can ride. You and trainer should tell the kids they need to be rested and ready to ride so they don't endanger themselves or the horses. Recommendations for 7-12 year olds are 10-11 hours. Tell them they need to be able to account for a minimum of 10 hours sleep before you'll let them ride.

They will likely show up again tired and woozy. Ask them how much sleep they got, and then, when they inevitably prevaricate (rare is the 10-year-old who can lie without batting an eyelash), then tell them they're sitting today out. They can hang out at the car or on the fence and watch others ride.

Rinse and repeat. After one (or two) missed weekend, you're either going to have a bright-eyed and bushy-tailed youngster the next week, maybe even with a paper log of sleep hours in hand (suggest they bring one the first time you deny riding), or an irate entitled mommy on your case, who you can tell the exact same thing to. Either way, you hold the keys to the horse kingdom and you'll release them when they are responsible enough to show up ready to ride.

If you want to be nice about it, you can tell them a million variations of: "I really want you to ride, but it is just not safe in your current state. Go to bed early, tell the truth, and do right by yourselves and your animals."
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Old 10-20-2020, 02:07 PM
 
Location: Leaving Tacoma, WA Soon!
282 posts, read 249,412 times
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Are 9 and 10 year olds old enough to do that? Might be an idea to try.
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Old 10-22-2020, 09:00 PM
 
5,789 posts, read 5,090,732 times
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Wow. You are a kindhearted, decent woman to do this. If you can keep it going, it will probably be the nicest thing that anyone ever does for these poor kids, and the structure it gives them will help them a lot.

Bedtime for normal children this age in a non-chaotic household would be between 8-9 PM. At this age, they need at least ten hours of sleep a night. The mother probably wants to sleep late in the mornings, so is perfectly happy to have the kids stay up very late with her, so that they won't wake her up in the mornings.

I agree that you need to tell the mother that the kids were so tired that they couldn't ride safely, and that this can never happen again. Also, you cannot keep a kid up until 2 AM most nights, and then expect them to go to sleep at 8 PM one night of the week. They would have to go to sleep no later than 9 pm every night, to be expected to fall asleep by 830 the night before their riding lessons. I just don't think that realistically this mother is going to put her family onto an earlier sleep schedule, earlier get up in the morning schedule, just so that the two oldest can have riding lessons. She doesn't pay a cent for them, so she doesn't value them.

If you can move the kids' lessons to the afternoons, great. But if it's an all day event, with them needing to be up early in the morning, I'd tell the mother what the problem was, that this is not safe for the kids to come exhausted, and that they need to be in bed early, and have SLEPT at least ten hours the night before, or you're going to have to stop the riding.

Look up the term "rescue fantasy" in psychotherapy. I would have rescue fantasies about these kids too. But you won't be able to do it. There is a reason that the mother wound up the way she has wound up. She will not see the benefit for her children of putting them on a regular schedule, encouraging and supporting education and enrichment activities, etc, or the benefit of setting a good example for them by WORKING. Realize that you can only do so much for these kids, and no more, because of who the mother is.
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Old 10-22-2020, 09:04 PM
 
7,317 posts, read 3,480,962 times
Reputation: 20192
Quote:
Originally Posted by wac_432 View Post
I don't understand your involvement. Are they staying with you? Are you driving them to their horse stuff? Are you paying for it?

If they're staying with you, set "lights out" at about T-10 hours prior to when they need to be up. You can also google sleep requirements by age.

As others have said, kids go to bed whenever and sleep schedules depend on family/school/work schedules. Ours stay up much later than their peers, get up later, and also take a daytime nap.
This.

Why are you involved at all?
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Old 10-23-2020, 12:54 AM
 
Location: North Dakota
8,641 posts, read 10,539,444 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fassopony View Post
I need some advice from parents and it needs to be anonymous- so no FB I do not have kids and am a 49 yr old female (not sure if this matters). My friends grandkids are city kids, and are in the single unemployed mom category. There are 6 kids ages 2-10. Somehow, the two oldest (9 yrs and 10 yrs) caught the "horse bug" as we call it, they love horses. I am very involved in the horse world and the oldest has started riding at the barn I go to and the second oldest will start in January. I thought long and hard about this because it's expensive and also there are 6 kids and not a real great family structure going on. I am glad I made the decision to go ahead, it has been a great environment for both of them. They get to have an outdoor activity, they get to learn about animal care and the responsibilities, they get to make friends, and they get to be around people who are supportive and constructive. They also get to go to horse shows, and the younger who is a boy, gets to do "guy" stuff like hanging out with the guys roping or doing other ranch type stuff (he loves it).

I knew there would be hurdles or issues that came up but this is a weird one. Or to me it is. They don't go to bed! I think before when school was in they may have but now that school is not due to COVID, they stay up until 2 or 3 am watching TV with their mother. Saturday the oldest's lesson was so bad she could barely think while riding and her instructor had to repeat herself 2-5 times. She also almost ran into another horse and rider (that rider handled it but had it been another inexperienced kid someone could have gotten hurt). She also slept both to and from the barn in the car. I know when I go to the barn this weekend the instructor will want to address this.

I am going to make a rule that they have to have "x" amount of sleep or be in bed by "x time" but I have no idea what time kids go to bed lol. I am an old accountant, I go to bed at 8, read a little then asleep by 9 pm lol

We also have a breakfast issue- they don't eat breakfast and fend for themselves. I think I can get the breakfast issue though- I'll bring it with me!

So, parents. What time? I am open to ideas on how to phrase this too.
Sounds like the mom needs to get a ****ing job.
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Old 10-23-2020, 12:12 PM
 
Location: Leaving Tacoma, WA Soon!
282 posts, read 249,412 times
Reputation: 562
Quote:
Originally Posted by parentologist View Post
Wow. You are a kindhearted, decent woman to do this. If you can keep it going, it will probably be the nicest thing that anyone ever does for these poor kids, and the structure it gives them will help them a lot.

Bedtime for normal children this age in a non-chaotic household would be between 8-9 PM. At this age, they need at least ten hours of sleep a night. The mother probably wants to sleep late in the mornings, so is perfectly happy to have the kids stay up very late with her, so that they won't wake her up in the mornings.

I agree that you need to tell the mother that the kids were so tired that they couldn't ride safely, and that this can never happen again. Also, you cannot keep a kid up until 2 AM most nights, and then expect them to go to sleep at 8 PM one night of the week. They would have to go to sleep no later than 9 pm every night, to be expected to fall asleep by 830 the night before their riding lessons. I just don't think that realistically this mother is going to put her family onto an earlier sleep schedule, earlier get up in the morning schedule, just so that the two oldest can have riding lessons. She doesn't pay a cent for them, so she doesn't value them.

If you can move the kids' lessons to the afternoons, great. But if it's an all day event, with them needing to be up early in the morning, I'd tell the mother what the problem was, that this is not safe for the kids to come exhausted, and that they need to be in bed early, and have SLEPT at least ten hours the night before, or you're going to have to stop the riding.

Look up the term "rescue fantasy" in psychotherapy. I would have rescue fantasies about these kids too. But you won't be able to do it. There is a reason that the mother wound up the way she has wound up. She will not see the benefit for her children of putting them on a regular schedule, encouraging and supporting education and enrichment activities, etc, or the benefit of setting a good example for them by WORKING. Realize that you can only do so much for these kids, and no more, because of who the mother is.
No rescue fantasy here lol I am an avid horse woman, and for our sport to keep going, we have to actively recruit these days. Horses are expensive and more a rural thing- city people don't generally know anything about horses, horse shows, or anything else farm or rural related. These two got the horse bug out of nowhere, I am happy to encourage it.

It is not that odd in the horse world to see many, many young (usually) girls ages 8 to late teens to early twenties- who ride unrelated people's horses. They work, beg, borrow, and steal for ride time and on the way up through the years learn valuable skills that allow them to afford horses later such as grooming, catch-riding, braiding, etc. I am an accountant now but many years ago when I realized a little bartending job would not support my horse lifestyle, I went back to school to get the bachelors in accounting and then MBA while I also braided show horses on the hunter circuit worth more than my car or even house sometimes lol. Horses usually bring a good work ethic and an ability to persevere.

This is an opportunity to have a lot of fun, be around lots of good people (mentoring and networking later), learn valuable life skills, develop confidence, and a myriad other good things for life. It can go any way- might end soon or last for years. But the choice is up to them!
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Old 10-23-2020, 12:14 PM
 
Location: Leaving Tacoma, WA Soon!
282 posts, read 249,412 times
Reputation: 562
Quote:
Originally Posted by NDak15 View Post
Sounds like the mom needs to get a ****ing job.
I think she is working on it. She is earning her degree in a field with a decent ROI (we had big discussions about that some time ago).
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Old 10-23-2020, 05:44 PM
 
506 posts, read 122,990 times
Reputation: 857
Quote:
Originally Posted by parentologist View Post


Look up the term "rescue fantasy" in psychotherapy. I would have rescue fantasies about these kids too. But you won't be able to do it. There is a reason that the mother wound up the way she has wound up. She will not see the benefit for her children of putting them on a regular schedule, encouraging and supporting education and enrichment activities, etc, or the benefit of setting a good example for them by WORKING. Realize that you can only do so much for these kids, and no more, because of who the mother is.
Actually, sometimes you never know the impact you can have on someone's life. I have a friend who grew up with two addicted parents and the most chaotic household you could ever imagine. At age 10 she used to drive to pick up her drugged out Dad from wherever he landed and bring him home "safely". No lie. In school she had one teacher who mentored her and she ended up a few years later going to college and becoming a professional. She said she has never, ever forgotten that teacher's kindness and help and would have ended up just like her parents if she didn't have her in her life.

Maybe it won't work out. Maybe it won't work out now. Maybe the seed has been planted and will take root later. Who knows? But to me, this opportunity is so enriching that I can't help but be optimistic that it will help these children. I'm a horse lover as well and I know the incredible bond humans can develop with them.
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