Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
When we were young (and middle aged) parents, we wanted and did all the same things that most parents seem to do. We wanted our kids to have all the best possible training and experiences. We wanted them to go to the “best” possible schools, and the best summer camps for learning etc. We spent a bloody fortune on educational/developmental toys and products, videos, private lessons and tutoring, summer camps. Music and piano lessons, language instruction, math camp, educational or experiential or memory building trips events and vacations, even private schools when the public schools did not seem to be doing a good job for some of our kids. The whole nine yards. Most of our friends did the same thing. We all scrimped on our personal spending, comfort etc so we could help our family develop great memories, experiences and education.
Our kids and our friends kids all seemed to do quite well for the most part. Good grades, scholarships for college . . . etc . . but:
1. Some of our kids and some of our friends kid's took the college thing to the full finish “successful” type career paths (PhDs and other doctor titles). Other of our kids and quite a few of our friend's kids took a different path and either did not finish college or went into subjects where all the great grades, test scores specialized teaching etc were really of little or no benefit to them (or in one case joined the military). One of our kids got accepted to an engineering superschool. He chose to major in music at a less competitive school and is becoming a music teacher instead. AP calculus is not going to help him one bit. Math camp - nope he did not really need that. Another attuned three plus years of engineering school on a scholarship and was miserable he hatted it and realized becoming an engineer would leave him miserable for his whole life. He quit college altogether and became a rowing coach. Now he is happy, but the private school with specialized focus in mathematics for gifted kids was pretty much a waste of our money.
2. Our kids and friends kids who went to private schools and had better and more tutoring etc, did not do better than the older kids who went to (often bad) public schools and had a lot less special training, tutoring camps etc. Our friends who had a lot of money and sent their kids to the top p[private schools for their education – their kids did not do substantially better than other kids (ours and our friend’s.) Some of their kids did really well, others less so. All the money spent on the best possible learning tools did not give them an edge, it just depended on the individual kid.
3. All those neat camping trips and ski trips, and other memory building things we spent so much money on? The kids do not remember them well, if at all. What they remember more? That time we all woke up and put on some loud music and danced the entire morning while we were getting ready for school/work; the songs we used to sing in the car on their way to school; the dead cat we found under the house; the day we walked to church (7 miles) because our car was broken and it was a nice day. Some of the costly trips - not one of the five of them can even remember that we went. Other trips they remember a few things they saw or did, or at least remember that we went on the trip, but very few of the costly endeavors to create great memories actually did create great memories. Their great memories came form other things and they remember surprisingly little, especially before about 10 - 12 years old. .
4. You must be very careful about ever showing disappointment in your kids accomplishments or choices. If you just spend $20,000 on Hockey costs and training and travel etc and your kids is doing really well and you are thinking scholarship city then he tells you that he hates hockey and wants to play the tuba instead. Do not express disappointment. Just accept that he likes tuba and not hockey despite what you want, o what you thought was best for him or what your spent. Nothing will mess up a kid more and faster and longer than a parent even inadvertently expressing any form of disappointment in their kids.
Not saying that you should do nothing to improve your kid's education, just that you should cool it a bit. You do not need to do all the things, spend all of your money on this stuff. It really does not help them all that much, not enough to make a difference in the long run.
The bottom line is if your kids are meant to do well in something, they will do well in it. All the camps, toys, videos, tutors trips and other costly BS do not change anything in the long run. Don’t buy the trendy pricy building set or electronics set. Get some empty cardboard boxes and a roll of duct tape and built a fort, or take apart a flashlight together and figure out how it works. You do not need baby Mozart, math camp, hooked on learning, my little engineer playset etc. Forget that crap and spend more of your money on yourself. (Unfortunately this will trigger a large number of parents who spent all the money and did all the things like we did and will feel a desperate need to defend and justify their life choices. However it does not change who your kids are going to be. dont make the same mistakes our generation has.)
We grew up with very little. However, we were housed, fed, schooled, read to, and had freedom.
We took two trips out of state but these were for medical reasons and the whole family just went. Dont remember much and the stress almost did my parents in. However at home I remember the swimming hole, playing outside, reading, watching planes take off and land at the various local airports, biking all over the trails, etc.
I remember lab experiments Dad did in the kitchen sometimes very unsuccessfully. I remember the Christmas tree we always ran around to find on Christmas Eve because they were leftover and either cheap or free.
Three kids: One ended up graduating college and being a civil engineer with his own business and then changed to be a mail carrier for the benefits and retired. One started as a Teamster and then at UPS and worked his way up to a manager (no college) till he retired. I started work for the government as a clerk (2 years college and zero unemployment where I was located) and worked my way up over 31 years to a Grade 11 and then retired.
Kids will follow their own path if you teach them resilience, hard work, waiting for results (instead of instant gratification), importance of learning their whole life, experimentation, etc.
I have concluded that age 12 is a critical junction as to what a child’s potential is.
I’ll use football as an example:
Cartersville, Georgia, is a hotbed of athletic talent. Recently two young men came through the Pop Warner circuit, through the middle school school games, played for Cartersville HS, etc.
One of those young men was Trevor Lawrence.
The other was no one whose name you would know.
The young man whom you’ve never heard of said that by 7th or 8th grade, it was clear that he physically didn’t have the ability to compete at the elite level, even though he was as dedicated to the game as anyone else.
I’ve seen the age 12 marker fulfill itself in my own children as well as many other young people I know.
Another example: lots of girls cheer in high school. One young woman I know was the youngest ever to make her area’s elite competitive team. She made her HS varsity team as a freshman. She now cheers for Baylor, as a pre-med major, on a full scholarship.
I’m sure that Trevor Lawrence’s parents paid a lot for football camps and private coaching. The cheerleader’s parents spent tens of thousands for cheer camps and clinics and private cheer teams.
In both cases it paid off, although certainly these are the exceptions and not the rule.
The truth is, most people are rather average and do not lead particularly notable lives. But they can be happy, productive, and valuable members of their community. Frankly, the world depends on average people.
In the end, there is nothing wrong with being a music teacher instead of an engineer or a doctor. We need music teachers too!
It is disappointing, though, to hear your perspective regarding travel. We have traveled extensively with our children from infancy, and those trips are cherished and are the basis of their fondest memories. My daughter still remembers visiting Paris as a six year old. Travel has shaped their character and perspective and is IMO invaluable.
I appreciate, however, that you are encouraging parents to stress less over whether they can provide every single opportunity and gizmo and extracurricular.
That is well worth emphasizing.
Last edited by calgirlinnc; 09-27-2021 at 07:46 PM..
I look no further than my immigrant grandparents who came to Canada in the 1930s, didn’t speak English, didn’t have much education, little money, both worked blue collar, physically demanding and sometimes menial jobs just to put food on the table. No family trips, no private schools, no country club, privileged living. Moving to Canada was the sacrifice for better opportunities.
What they had was work ethic. Out of that came three sons who went on to be doctors and engineers. My example is just one of millions of families who have done the same thing.
You are very right that spending $$$$$ and giving every opportunity guarantees nothing.
Thanks for the post, OP. I agree completely. Your post just reinforces many observations I've had over the years regarding public schools that many are prone to label as "bad." I'll just repost what I've written many times across these forums:
If you're not coming from a household where education is a priority (educational summer programs, reading to your children, having them do school work outside of school, etc., . . . all things that I was forced to do as a child . . . but, note, these things don't have to break the bank or anything close to it), I think that you (as a student) will suffer for it. If you enter the school system already behind, it'll be that much tougher for you to catch up.
Many people view the quality of the school district by graduation rate, test scores, etc., but I find that the above factors into this.
Case in point--and I've discussed this in this forum before, too--there is a public elementary school in my parents' neighborhood back in NYC. For the longest time (we moved to the area in the late 1990s), the school was seen as a failure and a "do not attend" school. Low graduation rate, poor test scores, etc. Today (and this change started taking place about 10 years ago), the school is a must attend school and realtors use the school zone as a major selling point in the neighborhood; graduation rates and test scores are extremely good.
What changed, you might ask? It sure as hell wasn't funding (educational funding is not tied to property taxes in NYC and schools across the city will get the same per student funding allocation, regardless of whether you're in a poor school district or a wealthy school district). And it wasn't the quality of education/teachers. The aforementioned were pretty much a constant. What changed was the quality of student and demographics of the community. The community went from overwhelmingly poor to working class black and Latino to overwhelming affluent and white. The students at the school came into things much better prepared than students of yesteryear, based on some things I wrote above.
Some people I have talked to tell me that their location "is different" and that the same does not apply. While I admittedly can't touch on the funding aspect everywhere, however, I haven't seen any convincing evidence to suggest that the same does not apply in elsewhere. And I'd bet my left show that if all of the students in poorly performing public school districts who attend private schools actually went to the public schools, they bulk wouldn't suffer for it, but the state would have much better education statistics as result.
On another interesting point, I always found it amusing those parents who sent their kids to some of the prestigious schools--paying full tuition or going into debt to do so--in NYC like the Dalton School (one of my best friends went there on a scholarship) ended up sending their kids to schools like Penn State, etc. Don't get me wrong. Penn State is a fine school and many are fortunate to go there. But I highly doubt that these parents paid $200k for high school without having a higher ranked school in mind.
I look no further than my immigrant grandparents who came to Canada in the 1930s, didn’t speak English, didn’t have much education, little money, both worked blue collar, physically demanding and sometimes menial jobs just to put food on the table. No family trips, no private schools, no country club, privileged living. Moving to Canada was the sacrifice for better opportunities.
What they had was work ethic. Out of that came three sons who went on to be doctors and engineers. My example is just one of millions of families who have done the same thing.
You are very right that spending $$$$$ and giving every opportunity guarantees nothing.
It always amazes me that some who succeeded without all of the fancy and expensive things in life feel that their kids cannot do the same, and often go into debt to "ensure" that their kids have the same outcomes they did despite the fact that they didn't have the same baseline they are trying to provide to their kids. Now, this takes on different meaning if you're rich and can afford to spend a crap ton of money, but many are not and are going into serious debt (or just setting themselves up for serious financial hardship further down the line) in order to provide for their children.
Note, I don't argue that people shouldn't work to provide their kids more comfort than they had growing up, etc. But I feel that many--especially those who can't truly afford to do so yet try anyway--go overboard.
It always amazes me that some who succeeded without all of the fancy and expensive things in life feel that their kids cannot do the same, and often go into debt to "ensure" that their kids have the same outcomes they did despite the fact that they didn't have the same baseline they are trying to provide to their kids. Now, this takes on different meaning if you're rich and can afford to spend a crap ton of money, but many are not and are going into serious debt (or just setting themselves up for serious financial hardship further down the line) in order to provide for their children.
Note, I don't argue that people shouldn't work to provide their kids more comfort than they had growing up, etc. But I feel that many--especially those who can't truly afford to do so yet try anyway--go overboard.
Yes, but I disagree with the OP that children won’t remember any of the trips or experiences you have with them. I remember all the trips I took with my grandparents fondly, and I think they influenced my sister and three cousins to be more adventurous. Three of us have lived abroad. One moved to Alaska for a year or two, and the fifth is a foodie who travels just to try specific restaurants/dining experiences. Most the other people I know have fond memories of the travels they had, be it camping at a campground relatively nearby, doing a road trip in state, or going on some exotic foreign trip. You don’t necessarily need to have a lot of money to enjoy travels, even if it is just a day trip to a place of interest. That is not to say I agree with people who go in debt to take some $5000 Disney or European vacation if they can’t afford it, but there is a big difference between that and a camping trip via car a couple of hours away.
"The bottom line is if your kids are meant to do well in something, they will do well in it."
Joseph Campbell called this 'following your bliss.' I think at some point you have to let kids follow the pull of what they are drawn to, what they love to do.....somewhere in there is what they were born to do.
Recommend a YouTube video called "Finding Joe." (or you can listen to it like a podcast). Pings off the book "The Hero has a Thousand Faces." Good stuff.
"The bottom line is if your kids are meant to do well in something, they will do well in it."
Joseph Campbell called this 'following your bliss.' I think at some point you have to let kids follow the pull of what they are drawn to, what they love to do.....somewhere in there is what they were born to do.
Recommend a YouTube video called "Finding Joe." (or you can listen to it like a podcast). Pings off the book "The Hero has a Thousand Faces." Good stuff.
One thing I do see parents doing is forcing kids into activities they clearly don’t enjoy when they express an interest for another activity that is less preferable to the parent. For example, I have a lot of friends who are super into sports, but their kids aren’t particularly sporty. If your kid is artsy, likes to cook, etc., why are you forcing her to do volleyball or soccer just because you like to coach it or personally like that better?
When I lived abroad, I had a friend who was pushed into applying to a top school in engineering because she apparently had a good chance of getting in. However, she had no desire to do that and wanted to do a job in an international environment where she could speak English. She ended up choosing her second application for a private school English program (she only got to apply to two places) and going there. She ended up working for the local tourism bureau for a few years and then moved onto working in marketing for a makeup company.
Yes, but I disagree with the OP that children won’t remember any of the trips or experiences you have with them. I remember all the trips I took with my grandparents fondly, and I think they influenced my sister and three cousins to be more adventurous. Three of us have lived abroad. One moved to Alaska for a year or two, and the fifth is a foodie who travels just to try specific restaurants/dining experiences. Most the other people I know have fond memories of the travels they had, be it camping at a campground relatively nearby, doing a road trip in state, or going on some exotic foreign trip. You don’t necessarily need to have a lot of money to enjoy travels, even if it is just a day trip to a place of interest. That is not to say I agree with people who go in debt to take some $5000 Disney or European vacation if they can’t afford it, but there is a big difference between that and a camping trip via car a couple of hours away.
They remember some of them, but they seem to remember simple things more than fancy trips. The morning spent dancing wildly was more remembered than the trip to Mexico to do mission work, or the trip to XYZ fancy place. The ski trip? A ew of them remember being terrified and hating skiing, but nothing else about the trip. The fact is, you can build great experiences and memories without spending money. Spending a lot to go to exotic places does not increase the likelihood of memorable experiences. It does not introduce them to foreign cultures and does not provide other benefits that are often touted. What do our kids remember learning about foreign cultures? In our neighborhood and in their schools. Trips? No not really.
Most memorable things they talk about: Building a playhouse with Dad, driving to school singing the songs that I had on various cassette tapes in my car; mom helping them create halloween costumes; singing in the Christmas pageant at church; a car accident. . . . The fancy trips and experiences - not much memory of them other than that we went and maybe an event or two that happened. We thought those trips were creating great memorable experience while failing to notice the things that actually created great memorable experiences for them.
The point is focusing spending on those sorts of things is somewhat pointless. Both because you do not know or control what they will remember, and because they do not remember a while lot, especially when they are very young.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
