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Old 10-13-2022, 11:26 AM
 
Location: Somewhere in America
15,479 posts, read 15,532,570 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zentropa View Post
Oh hell no. Not in my neighborhood. I never saw another adult spank a child my entire life. I guess they did that in private. Our play time was supervised and if a kid misbehaved they were put in time out until the parents came to get them. By the time I was allowed to wander freely in the neighborhood I was at least 11 or 12. If someone had tried to spank me or hit me my dad would have gotten the police involved.

This was the late-60s/early-70s.

What kind of neighborhood did you grow up in?
Where I lived growing up - 2 different communities - no one in the neighborhood spanked anyone's kids. If you were misbehaving you were sent home.

I can't imagine spanking someone else's child. Especially today.
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Old 10-13-2022, 11:30 AM
 
Location: Somewhere in America
15,479 posts, read 15,532,570 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SnazzyB View Post
When we were kids growing up, the only people who EVER laid a hand on us was our parents. But sure enough, neighbors were happy enough to tattle to our parents, if they saw us doing something we shouldn't have been doing.

I forgot about the neighbor who would molest me. But he wasn't punishing me...he was molesting me. But here's the thing about THAT. I grew up in a household that believed in spanking. While my mom was more fair about it, my dad would often spank us out of frustration. We didn't move fast enough for him, or we were coughing too loud, or we were underfoot, etc.

I learned at an early age that when a grown up says jump, you better jump. I did NOT get the lesson that I had autonomy over my own body. And when I was 5, a dentist and his assistant held me down, and the dentist climbed onto my chest, and shoved his big paw in my mouth to drill a cavity, without anesthesia to deaden the pain.

Again...I learned the lesson that adults get to hurt kids, and again, I didn't get a say in it.

And then a couple of years after that...I started getting molested by the neighbor. But I knew the lesson. When a grownup says come here...you have to do it.

So OP, you have a baby girl who's going to learn the same lessons I learned. Think about that.
I'm so sorry you went through all of these traumatic experiences. How awful for you! It is pretty wild what we are taught at a very young age and how we adapt to it throughout our lives.




The spankings I received ended up causing me to have horrible self-esteem issues and that my parents hate me. I'm way older now and still feel like my parents hate me and wish I was never born. I can't think of a single thing I've ever done that made them proud. I usually get lectured on why I did what I did. My mother still threatens to smack me. Wonder why I moved several hours away. Can't imagine.
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Old 10-13-2022, 11:54 AM
 
42 posts, read 14,280 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SnazzyB View Post
So...would you say your granddaughter is in the wrong, if she walks into the bathroom? Is she wrong for taking a refrigerator magnet? Do you think that deserves punishment?

So...be the outcast then. Set the new trend. Tell your siblings that you will gladly keep this baby home, rather than being unjustly punished for simply being a baby. If they want to see the baby, they can come to your place. Your house, your rules. Advocate for this little one who can't advocate for herself.
To answer your questions, no I don't think that an 18 month old who touches a fridge magnet or simply walks into the bathroom is in the wrong at all. It's just a new room she's never been in and she's just exploring. Or the fridge magnet is pretty and colorful. Again, not a Tiffany fridge magnet or it's not made by Gucci. A $2 magnet from a gift shop. Yes, I think mom is a bit overboard about it but she doesn't even allow us, her own kids, to touch the magnets. It's just how she is.
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Old 10-13-2022, 12:26 PM
 
22,284 posts, read 21,621,875 times
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OP seems to be fixated on the wrong things throughout this thread.

What he won't acknowledge is his deep-seated fear of his mom is at the heart of this horrible saga.

If she would cut a brand new dress off a baby for absolutely no reason, I can't image what horrors she inflicted on him as a child. This explains his fear of standing up to her.

As many of us have tried to explain, hitting a baby or toddler (also, yelling, screaming, angry outbursts) causes irreversible damage that may not show up until adulthood. OP may believe that his he and his daughter grew up "just fine" but his own stories of marital dysfunction, kidnapping, sexual abuse allegations, etc. are not something that happens in 99.9% of families. It's extreme. Just like the grandmother's behavior.

Of course you can't draw a bright line between early corporal punishment and specific later dysfunction, but nor can you say everyone raised by this crazy old woman is "just fine."

A therapist, however, would certainly explore the relationship between his disastrous choice of bed partner/accidental mother of his child and being raised by "Momma" and her harsh childrearing "techniques."

So once again, OP. Why are you so afraid of your mother when you have stated over and over again that what she is doing to your granddaughter is WRONG? What power does she have over you that you would cower rather than protect that precious child and her future?

Give your granddaughter a chance at a healthy future by removing toxic people from her life.
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Old 10-13-2022, 12:32 PM
 
42 posts, read 14,280 times
Reputation: 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by SnazzyB View Post
When we were kids growing up, the only people who EVER laid a hand on us was our parents. But sure enough, neighbors were happy enough to tattle to our parents, if they saw us doing something we shouldn't have been doing.

I forgot about the neighbor who would molest me. But he wasn't punishing me...he was molesting me. But here's the thing about THAT. I grew up in a household that believed in spanking. While my mom was more fair about it, my dad would often spank us out of frustration. We didn't move fast enough for him, or we were coughing too loud, or we were underfoot, etc.

I learned at an early age that when a grown up says jump, you better jump. I did NOT get the lesson that I had autonomy over my own body. And when I was 5, a dentist and his assistant held me down, and the dentist climbed onto my chest, and shoved his big paw in my mouth to drill a cavity, without anesthesia to deaden the pain.

Again...I learned the lesson that adults get to hurt kids, and again, I didn't get a say in it.

And then a couple of years after that...I started getting molested by the neighbor. But I knew the lesson. When a grownup says come here...you have to do it.

So OP, you have a baby girl who's going to learn the same lessons I learned. Think about that.
See when we were growing up in the 60's and 70's, in most black neighborhoods, we all played together in the streets and all the parents watched out for not only their kids but all the kids in the neighborhood. Which meant those parents had the right to discipline any child they saw getting out of line. That was fine back in the day. That's how we were raised and I respect those other parents. To this day I still referred to them as my extended moms and I love and respect them for disciplining me/us back then. Granted, that was then and this is now. You can't touch anyone else's child much less say anything to them now. However, this isn't a situation of a neighborhood mom disciplining or spanking a child. This is a great-grandma.
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Old 10-13-2022, 12:55 PM
 
42 posts, read 14,280 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonic_Spork View Post
I don't necessarily think that spanking is 100% always abuse, either, but... In my opinions based on my upbringing, how I raised my kids, and everything I ever observed in the family, the history of parenting in my family, and others around us... Spanking has a very LIMITED usefulness and purpose. It's for when a child is old enough to understand what you're trying to tell them, mobile, able to get themselves into danger, but too young to be reasoned with. It is the startling STOP to what could become a power struggle of defiance, particularly when the parent knows the child will be in danger if they don't comply. For us, this was around age 2-5. By 5, they could be talked to and other techniques worked better anyways. (Rewards, restricting privileges, etc.) But the problem that a ton of parents have with physical discipline, is that it isn't proper discipline at all. It's not applied with calm and consistency. It's more like a parent having a little angry fit. That was the problem in my family when I was a kid...my parents didn't punish, when I was young, in consistent ways, only when they were angry. This teaches a few things...like, rather than avoiding doing a behavior, I needed to just avoid making them mad (getting caught.) And that my parents were unreliable, and couldn't even be trusted to behave in a rational way. I lost all faith in authority. Full stop. And by the way? I'm 43 and that has NEVER changed. Also? I have no fear of physical pain...I know I can cope with that...but I cannot and will not tolerate anger. I am intensely conflict avoidant.

And that stuff...that's "if you're lucky" outcomes. Because I am a fairly functional person as an adult, actually. In some ways I didn't fully "turn out fine" especially in terms of what I dealt with in the first man I married and all...but it could have been so much worse for me.

So the biggest issue I see here, is that there is no consistency. Baby can explore and do things in other places, but when she's at GGma's house, suddenly she's constantly in trouble, and there's no way she's going to understand why. If you screamed at her in a rage, or swatted her bottom, regardless the fact is she's dealing with shifting terrain and inconsistent expectations. Which will make the actions of the adults appear to be arbitrary...not so much behavioral correction as just, meanness for no reason.

The only solution I can think of where you can still take the child to spend time with family there, is not to trust anyone else to keep an eye on her. To stay right there and watch her always, even when you hand her off to someone to hold...keep an eye on her and if they put her down, be ready to keep her occupied. Bring toys.
You hit the nail on the head. We bought her, my sister and I who are responsible for her daily care, refrigerator magnets to play with and stick on the fridge. Alphabet letters, animals in the shapes of letters, little butterflies to play with. Those are her toys in our house. But at GG's house refrigerator magnets are not to be touched by anyone. They are decorations. And again, in our house walking by the stove is the only route to that part of the house. In GG's house you need to teach her to walk around the kitchen table. So we now have to put our kitchen table in the middle of the kitchen between the fridge and the stove and discipline her for walking between the stove and the table. But then again discipline her for touching a fridge magnet. My house is not made like yours so I shouldn't be expected to set my house up like yours to teach her in my house what not to do in your house? Again, the baby is only 18 months old not 4 or 5 years old.
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Old 10-13-2022, 01:12 PM
 
22,284 posts, read 21,621,875 times
Reputation: 54728
Quote:
Originally Posted by Confused2022 View Post
You hit the nail on the head. We bought her, my sister and I who are responsible for her daily care, refrigerator magnets to play with and stick on the fridge. Alphabet letters, animals in the shapes of letters, little butterflies to play with. Those are her toys in our house. But at GG's house refrigerator magnets are not to be touched by anyone. They are decorations. And again, in our house walking by the stove is the only route to that part of the house. In GG's house you need to teach her to walk around the kitchen table. So we now have to put our kitchen table in the middle of the kitchen between the fridge and the stove and discipline her for walking between the stove and the table. But then again discipline her for touching a fridge magnet. My house is not made like yours so I shouldn't be expected to set my house up like yours to teach her in my house what not to do in your house? Again, the baby is only 18 months old not 4 or 5 years old.
God, why do you keep harping on this? What are you going to DO about it! You seem so....helpless and childlike.
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Old 10-13-2022, 01:14 PM
 
42 posts, read 14,280 times
Reputation: 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by zentropa View Post
OP seems to be fixated on the wrong things throughout this thread.

What he won't acknowledge is his deep-seated fear of his mom is at the heart of this horrible saga.

If she would cut a brand new dress off a baby for absolutely no reason, I can't image what horrors she inflicted on him as a child. This explains his fear of standing up to her.

As many of us have tried to explain, hitting a baby or toddler (also, yelling, screaming, angry outbursts) causes irreversible damage that may not show up until adulthood. OP may believe that his he and his daughter grew up "just fine" but his own stories of marital dysfunction, kidnapping, sexual abuse allegations, etc. are not something that happens in 99.9% of families. It's extreme. Just like the grandmother's behavior.

Of course you can't draw a bright line between early corporal punishment and specific later dysfunction, but nor can you say everyone raised by this crazy old woman is "just fine."

A therapist, however, would certainly explore the relationship between his disastrous choice of bed partner/accidental mother of his child and being raised by "Momma" and her harsh childrearing "techniques."

So once again, OP. Why are you so afraid of your mother when you have stated over and over again that what she is doing to your granddaughter is WRONG? What power does she have over you that you would cower rather than protect that precious child and her future?

Give your granddaughter a chance at a healthy future by removing toxic people from her life.
Ok, since you think you know more than me about my family structure I'm going to do as you suggest. I'll update you guys come next week on how things go. It's not as easy as you think to just tell someone, namely your own parent, no or they're wrong, especially when you're in their house. We'll see how that goes. My mom would never come to my house and tell me how to parent so why would it be cool to go to hers and tell her the exact same thing? Again ?I say, go to anyone else's house and tell them they're wrong for how they do something in their house. See how well that goes over with you.
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Old 10-13-2022, 01:16 PM
 
Location: Somewhere in America
15,479 posts, read 15,532,570 times
Reputation: 28462
Quote:
Originally Posted by zentropa View Post
God, why do you keep harping on this? What are you going to DO about it! You seem so....helpless and childlike.
I was thinking the exact thing. I feel like I'm talking to a brick wall.
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Old 10-13-2022, 01:20 PM
 
Location: Somewhere in America
15,479 posts, read 15,532,570 times
Reputation: 28462
Quote:
Originally Posted by Confused2022 View Post
Ok, since you think you know more than me about my family structure I'm going to do as you suggest. I'll update you guys come next week on how things go. It's not as easy as you think to just tell someone, namely your own parent, no or they're wrong, especially when you're in their house. We'll see how that goes. My mom would never come to my house and tell me how to parent so why would it be cool to go to hers and tell her the exact same thing? Again ?I say, go to anyone else's house and tell them they're wrong for how they do something in their house. See how well that goes over with you.
Well, yes it is easy to stand up for yourself and a helpless toddler. I have no problem telling people that they are wrong and need to go check themselves. I have no problem not going to people's houses when they hurt others. No one would come here and tell me it's ok to spank a child. I'd pick your ***** up and physically throw you out of my house if you were to EVER lay a hand on any child in my house. No joke. I do not tolerate this kind of nonsense. When children do come to my house, I pick things up and move them to out of their reach and I have no problem closing doors. If they get into something that I left out, I don't blame them. I simply remove it. I don't lecture others how things are done in my house. They're a guest and part of my job as a host is to keep them all safe so that means putting things where little ones can't reach them.
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