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Old 11-10-2022, 06:53 PM
 
Location: Mr. Roger's Neighborhood
4,085 posts, read 2,517,969 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by calgirlinnc View Post
I appreciate your perspective. However, “toxic masculinity” is definitely central to the arc of the book; this says it better than I can:



https://thereadingdesk.wordpress.com...view-beartown/

I don’t necessarily disagree with this premise.

I question it’s suitability for unguided reading in 10th grade. When researching the book, I learned that it was chosen for the 2018 freshman class of Tulane University to read and discuss. There is undoubtedly a difference between the maturity level of 15/16 year olds and 18/19 year olds. The discussions were also led by the college faculty. The students weren’t left to discuss it in their own little groups as my daughter is doing.

https://news.tulane.edu/news/reading...sexual-assault

And I think it has to be said, since you brought up the example of the Ohio school, that there are other examples such as the Duke University lacrosse case.

I wish as well that an accurate description of the book had been provided so that my daughter could have made a more informed decision.

As far as Shakespeare goes, we were taught about the history of tragedies, comedies, and histories, and why they were written the way they were. Nobody was reading Shakespeare in order to change student’s minds about anything.


I read some pretty deep and dark stuff in when I was your daughter's age with much of it assigned reading by my excellent (and very second-wave feminist) honors English teacher. Perhaps the language was less rough (mostly because certain words weren't casually bandied about as they are now--this was in the early 1990s in a small, rural town) and the notion of toxic masculinity was in its infancy and had yet to be named, but I remember that some of those books and short stories had storylines about or were actual accounts of rape, torture, incest, suicide/self-harm/wishes to do either, etc. A great deal of it I ended up rereading in college either as assignments or by choice.

The teacher's stated intent in assigning such reading as relayed by you is something that I'd have far more issues with than the reading materials themselves as with guidance and thought, there is lot to be learned from them. Right from wrong, how the lines can be blurred between the two, social hierarchies, grace, and what people learn about themselves and others with time and maturity. (The end of the book that your child is reading comes as a bit of a surprise, but in a good way.)

So far as an informed decision, your daughter could easily have looked up the plotline and reviews of the book before choosing to read it in lieu of her other two choices. Mind you, I'm not picking on her or even you, but in this day and age, it's as easy as punching in a title and hitting the search button on a smart phone or computer.

Let her read the book and make her own judgments about it and the subject matter after she's finished it. You might be surprised at what she takes away from it.
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Old 11-10-2022, 07:09 PM
 
Location: In a George Strait Song
9,545 posts, read 7,005,947 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Formerly Known As Twenty View Post
I read some pretty deep and dark stuff in when I was your daughter's age with much of it assigned reading by my excellent (and very second-wave feminist) honors English teacher. Perhaps the language was less rough (mostly because certain words weren't casually bandied about as they are now--this was in the early 1990s in a small, rural town) and the notion of toxic masculinity was in its infancy and had yet to be named, but I remember that some of those books and short stories had storylines about or were actual accounts of rape, torture, incest, suicide/self-harm/wishes to do either, etc. A great deal of it I ended up rereading in college either as assignments or by choice.

The teacher's stated intent in assigning such reading as relayed by you is something that I'd have far more issues with than the reading materials themselves as with guidance and thought, there is lot to be learned from them. Right from wrong, how the lines can be blurred between the two, social hierarchies, grace, and what people learn about themselves and others with time and maturity. (The end of the book that your child is reading comes as a bit of a surprise, but in a good way.)

So far as an informed decision, your daughter could easily have looked up the plotline and reviews of the book before choosing to read it in lieu of her other two choices. Mind you, I'm not picking on her or even you, but in this day and age, it's as easy as punching in a title and hitting the search button on a smart phone or computer.

Let her read the book and make her own judgments about it and the subject matter after she's finished it. You might be surprised at what she takes away from it.
Your comments are thoughtful and balanced, and I appreciate that.

We have not forbidden our daughter from reading it.

She had to choose the book during class. There are no phones or laptops or ways to research it during class.

I disagree that the end of Bear Town is satisfying.

I am not opposed to difficult subjects in general. For example, I would not say no to her reading “Redeeming Love” by Francine Rivers, or Unbroken by Laura Hillenbrand, or Tess of the D’Urbervilles by Thomas Hardy.

I am opposed to THIS book, with its description of the rape, the crude language, the woke agenda, every single stereotype about white boys.

I realize now I should have been paying closer attention when she was assigned “The Things They Carried” a few months ago as well.

Last edited by calgirlinnc; 11-10-2022 at 07:44 PM..
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Old 11-10-2022, 07:32 PM
 
Location: Mr. Roger's Neighborhood
4,085 posts, read 2,517,969 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by calgirlinnc View Post
Your comments are thoughtful and balanced, and I appreciate that.

We have not forbidden our daughter from reading it.

She had to choose the book during class. There are no phones or laptops or ways to research it during class.
That makes sense re: not being able to fully research the plot of the book before having to make a choice of which to read. Thank you for clarifying that and my apologies for assuming that students had access to the internet prior to choosing what they were to read.

My parents were both teachers who were pretty open about letting me read what I would. (The only book that they confiscated was "Helter Skelter," as they felt that young teenaged me didn't need to read about innocent people including a pregnant woman being murdered by cultists. *That* was not assigned school reading, though.)

The thing is, I wish that your daughter's teacher had arranged her syllabus and class mission statement in a less polarizing manner and had provided plot outlines of each book choice so the students could make better informed decisions for themselves. It would also make more sense if she'd say, teach a classic such as Othello or even Ellison's Invisible Man and let the students draw parallels between it and attitudes that continue to this day, albeit in a much different time and place as well as newer literature such as the book your daughter is reading.

It's almost as if she's trying to deliberately stir the parental pot, which I don't understand unless the teacher is still in first decade of her teaching career. There are ways to assign difficult/challenging reading in such a way that doesn't alienate parents or push students towards one way of thinking or another without remaining neutral enough so that they can learn to make judgment calls on their own.
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Old 11-10-2022, 08:07 PM
 
Location: In a George Strait Song
9,545 posts, read 7,005,947 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Formerly Known As Twenty View Post

The thing is, I wish that your daughter's teacher had arranged her syllabus and class mission statement in a less polarizing manner and had provided plot outlines of each book choice so the students could make better informed decisions for themselves. It would also make more sense if she'd say, teach a classic such as Othello or even Ellison's Invisible Man and let the students draw parallels between it and attitudes that continue to this day, albeit in a much different time and place as well as newer literature such as the book your daughter is reading.

It's almost as if she's trying to deliberately stir the parental pot, which I don't understand unless the teacher is still in first decade of her teaching career. There are ways to assign difficult/challenging reading in such a way that doesn't alienate parents or push students towards one way of thinking or another without remaining neutral enough so that they can learn to make judgment calls on their own.
I completely agree with this. I know now that the entire curriculum for 10th Honors is controversial books. I vaguely remember an email about “challenging texts” at the start of school, but my father had just passed away and my daughter read just diagnosed with a major medical condition, so I didn’t pay close enough attention. That’s on me.

(The medical condition is another reason why I’m concerned. She is not supposed to be under any emotional stress).

Of course there is a whole history of controversial literature that would now be considered classics, but that is not the approach the school/district has taken.

The teacher is not interested in hearing parents’ opinions either.

ETA: I just asked my daughter how she felt reading “The Things They Carried.” She said her teacher warned the class that the book contained “mature content” but that they just “had to get over it.”

Last edited by calgirlinnc; 11-10-2022 at 08:20 PM..
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Old 11-11-2022, 01:21 AM
 
Location: The Sunshine State of Mind
2,379 posts, read 1,484,297 times
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This was more than a decade ago. My son was reading A Lesson Before Dying by Ernest Gaines. I picked it up and read it when he wasn't. I got through it pretty fast. There was a few racy parts. When I mentioned it to the teacher at conference time, she told me to take it up with the school board. I was just attempting to have a conversation, not start a big issue. All in all, it was a good book.

Last edited by Monello; 11-11-2022 at 01:40 AM..
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Old 11-11-2022, 06:52 AM
 
21,649 posts, read 9,208,537 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by calgirlinnc View Post
I completely agree with this. I know now that the entire curriculum for 10th Honors is controversial books. I vaguely remember an email about “challenging texts” at the start of school, but my father had just passed away and my daughter read just diagnosed with a major medical condition, so I didn’t pay close enough attention. That’s on me.

(The medical condition is another reason why I’m concerned. She is not supposed to be under any emotional stress).

Of course there is a whole history of controversial literature that would now be considered classics, but that is not the approach the school/district has taken.

The teacher is not interested in hearing parents’ opinions either.

ETA: I just asked my daughter how she felt reading “The Things They Carried.” She said her teacher warned the class that the book contained “mature content” but that they just “had to get over it.”
Where do you live? Where I live, we just successfully ousted the majority of the school board for this stuff.
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Old 11-11-2022, 07:07 AM
 
2,187 posts, read 2,100,107 times
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Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth View Post
What?! In whose world? Who's the sheltered one here? There have been cases of pre-teen rape, let alone teen rape. What point were you trying to make again?!
In every world. You really do not know anything about rape. Good for you. I'm truly glad you haven't experienced it. It has nothing to do with sexual activity. Nothing to do with sex. Rape to to sexual activity as OJ's murder of Ron Goldman is to having your tonsils out.
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Old 11-11-2022, 10:44 AM
 
21,382 posts, read 7,845,536 times
Reputation: 18148
Quote:
Originally Posted by calgirlinnc View Post
I completely agree with this. I know now that the entire curriculum for 10th Honors is controversial books. I vaguely remember an email about “challenging texts” at the start of school, but my father had just passed away and my daughter read just diagnosed with a major medical condition, so I didn’t pay close enough attention. That’s on me.

(The medical condition is another reason why I’m concerned. She is not supposed to be under any emotional stress).

Of course there is a whole history of controversial literature that would now be considered classics, but that is not the approach the school/district has taken.

The teacher is not interested in hearing parents’ opinions either.

ETA: I just asked my daughter how she felt reading “The Things They Carried.” She said her teacher warned the class that the book contained “mature content” but that they just “had to get over it.”
I read this in a 300-level college course specific to English majors.

This teacher sounds like she should be working for a social justice org. She sounds like a nutter.

She should not be anywhere near kids or teaching kids.
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Old 11-11-2022, 10:51 AM
 
3,338 posts, read 1,204,909 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by calgirlinnc View Post
I hadn’t even thought of that! Excellent point.

English class is not at all about learning how to write and understand literature; it is about SJW topics.



We’ve discussed “these things” with her, and much more thoroughly and honestly than will be discussed in her classroom.



What was the book?



My daughter’s approach is, let me get through the book even if it’s awful so I can pass the test and pass the class and graduate high school. This has done the opposite of make her enjoy literature, and I find that very sad.
The best way to foster a child’s love of literature is to be a reader yourself and read to them starting when they are babies.
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Old 11-11-2022, 11:38 AM
 
Location: North Idaho
32,491 posts, read 47,436,183 times
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Thinking about this topic it occurred to me that in high school we read books like Animal Farm and 1984.

I can see why those aren't read. The system doesn't want people to know that the end result of socialism is that "all animals are equal; but some animals are more equal than others".

We read Hemingway and Shakespeare, and I can't remember what all else. Lord of the Flies was a book that we were assigned to read. I'm not sure what value can be taken from Lord of the Flies, but we read it and discussed it.

Because so many people decide that they don't enjoy reading, maybe the schools should put more emphasis on books that are entertaining or pleasant or interesting and work on getting students interested in reading instead of thinking of it as a punishment.

Let them read James Mitchener if you want something with historical value that is interesting to read.
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