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Let me get this straight, spanking a kid for doing something wrong is obedience, but making a kid sit in a certain spot for a certain amount of time is discipline?
Sigh.
No. You have a severe language problem.
Discipline is not punishment. Punishment is punishment. Spanking is punishment. Time outs when used in the retarded way they have been morphed into is punishment.
Spanking isn't obedience. Spanking causes a desire for obedience.
Discipline is TEACHING. Teaching right from wrong. Teaching problem solving to avoid wrong. Teaching recognizing right and wrong. Teaching having self control.
SELF discipline, the ultimate goal, is the absorption and internalization of that teaching. When people choose to do right on their own without need for fear of punishment. When people have self control...
It is the setting of arbitrary consequences of a misbehavior.
Completely absent from the discipline conversation when discipline is equated with punishment is
- that almost all parents will unintentionally throw up barriers to cooperation. We want cooperation from our kids. But we inadvertently do things that directly cause them not to want to be cooperative.
- that many kids WANT to do right / be good. And we de-motivate them from that when we look at them as horrid little beasties wanting to get away with things. As a matter of fact, using a punishment reward system for behavior modification (behavior modification is all that it is, it has nothing to do with teaching) tends to CAUSE the very motivation to get away with things. Whose gonna catch me? Will I get punished? What motivation would they have to do right if no one is watching them?
- completely leaves out how to deal with mistakes themselves. Mistake (which is the VAST majority of misbehavior until parents get their punitive mits on kids) get a smack. When do they learn remedy and amends? Where do they learn the REAL NATURAL consequences of their actions?
As a side note, time outs make a REALLY crappy consequence because like spanking it is arbitrary. It is not particularly onerous. And it was never intended as a punishmnent at all but as a technique for regaining emotional control when emotional control has been lost.
You said, "You can show us a million studies on how spanking is a detriment to kids, but there are plenty of people on this thread who can show they turned out just fine when they were spanked." You will believe that your personal experience shows that spanking is "just fine" even if presented with a million studies showing it is detrimental.
Because then s/he would have to put some time and effort into learning new skills because s/he clearly thinks that punishment is all there is to discipline. If you substitute time out for spanking, you won't get far. And that whole notion seems to stretch the brain farther than s/he is able or willing to go.
The definition of discipline according to the dictionary...
Noun:The practice of training people to obey rules or a code of behavior, using punishment to correct disobedience.Verb:Train (someone) to obey rules or a code of behavior, using punishment to correct disobedience.Synonyms:noun. order - punishment verb. punish - school - castigate - train - correct - chastise
Not to get into the tit-for-tat over whether or not spanking is right or wrong (I tend to think that it is acceptable as one tool among many), the simple fact is that discipline is basically a system wherein you set a certain level of expected behavior/performance and then use punishments when those expectations are not meant. You can call time outs, taking toys away, etc. "teaching strategies" or "positive corrective tools" but it doesn't mean that they aren't, in fact, punishments.
Any argument you can apply to spanking not being effective discipline can apply to any punishment. If the punishment is not effective then the discipline won't be instilled as there is no threat of punishment for bad behavior. The ultimate goal of discipline is to reach a level of self-discipline where-in the punishments are no longer necessary as the person auto corrects via learned behavior. A child that is given time outs can just as easily go through the mental process of saying that they will do something bad when no one is looking in order to avoid a time out just as easily as one who is spanked, in fact I would expect most kids to go through this thought process.
So, what we are really talking about is the efficacy of punishments, not discipline vs. punishment, because they are one in the same. If spanking is effective, then it is effective and serving the purpose. With some kids it is, with some it isn't. The same goes for time outs and anything else. The key is finding the discipline that is effective for you and your child and this often changes over time and can also be situational. Don't twist words just because you don't like the word punishment do to the negative connotations.
Not to get into the tit-for-tat over whether or not spanking is right or wrong (I tend to think that it is acceptable as one tool among many), the simple fact is that discipline is basically a system wherein you set a certain level of expected behavior/performance and then use punishments
This is not a simple fact. IN FACT it is not what I am going for with my discipline strategy AT ALL. Behavior modification is exactly not what I am after and exactly what I don't like about punishment / reward systems.
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when those expectations are not meant. You can call time outs, taking toys away, etc. "teaching strategies" or "positive corrective tools" but it doesn't mean that they aren't, in fact, punishments.
GAH! Forget it. Read the books or don't.
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So, what we are really talking about is the efficacy of punishments,
You said, "You can show us a million studies on how spanking is a detriment to kids, but there are plenty of people on this thread who can show they turned out just fine when they were spanked." You will believe that your personal experience shows that spanking is "just fine" even if presented with a million studies showing it is detrimental.
Like i said to someone else, no matter what I say, you will never believe that spanking can be an effective form of punishment. I'm evidence that it is effective. There are thousands of parents who use spanking as a form of discipline and it works for them, but you will not accept that, you form your opinions based of books, and that is fine. You will never convince me that spanking shouldn't be a useful form of discipline. I know plenty of successful people who had a belt taken to their butts and they are successful people who have never been a detriment to society, but you won't accept that. My parents got spanked, they are good people, i got spanked, I turned out great and I will use spanking if I deem it necessary. Its my opinion that non-spanking parents believe they know more about raising kids than spanking parents. If it makes you feel better and sleep better at night to know you would never spank your kids, I'm happy for you.
Like i said to someone else, no matter what I say, you will never believe that spanking can be an effective form of punishment. I'm evidence that it is effective.
This is an odd point. No matter what I say you probably won't ever believe that the world is flat or that there are unobtainium deposits in the Earth's crust. It seems odd to me that you keep repeating this as if it reflects some kind of failing.
Discipline is not punishment. Punishment is punishment. Spanking is punishment. Time outs when used in the retarded way they have been morphed into is punishment.
Spanking isn't obedience. Spanking causes a desire for obedience.
Discipline is TEACHING. Teaching right from wrong. Teaching problem solving to avoid wrong. Teaching recognizing right and wrong. Teaching having self control.
SELF discipline, the ultimate goal, is the absorption and internalization of that teaching. When people choose to do right on their own without need for fear of punishment. When people have self control...
It is the setting of arbitrary consequences of a misbehavior.
Completely absent from the discipline conversation when discipline is equated with punishment is
- that almost all parents will unintentionally throw up barriers to cooperation. We want cooperation from our kids. But we inadvertently do things that directly cause them not to want to be cooperative.
- that many kids WANT to do right / be good. And we de-motivate them from that when we look at them as horrid little beasties wanting to get away with things. As a matter of fact, using a punishment reward system for behavior modification (behavior modification is all that it is, it has nothing to do with teaching) tends to CAUSE the very motivation to get away with things. Whose gonna catch me? Will I get punished? What motivation would they have to do right if no one is watching them?
- completely leaves out how to deal with mistakes themselves. Mistake (which is the VAST majority of misbehavior until parents get their punitive mits on kids) get a smack. When do they learn remedy and amends? Where do they learn the REAL NATURAL consequences of their actions?
As a side note, time outs make a REALLY crappy consequence because like spanking it is arbitrary. It is not particularly onerous. And it was never intended as a punishmnent at all but as a technique for regaining emotional control when emotional control has been lost.
If it makes you feel better to know you don't spank your kids, I'm happy for you. I'm a product of a spanking enviroment, and I believe its effective in teaching discipline and giving out punishment. You obviously are a parent who believes they know what's best for your child and every other kid in america. If you want to think that, go right ahead.
This is an odd point. No matter what I say you probably won't ever believe that the world is flat or that there are unobtainium deposits in the Earth's crust. It seems odd to me that you keep repeating this as if it reflects some kind of failing.
I keep saying it to make a point, non-spankers can't accept that spanking can be an affective form of discipline. You and I can argue for hours on this point, but neither of us will change our minds.
If it makes you feel better to know you don't spank your kids, I'm happy for you. I'm a product of a spanking enviroment,
So am I. What does that have to do with the price of tea in China.
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and I believe its effective in teaching discipline and giving out punishment. You obviously are a parent who believes they know what's best for your child and every other kid in america. If you want to think that, go right ahead.
America?!? The WORLD. They ought to nominate me Grand World Leader of Parenting Law and Order.
So am I. What does that have to do with the price of tea in China.
America?!? The WORLD. They ought to nominate me Grand World Leader of Parenting Law and Order.
It means that it worked on me and I believe it will work on my kids.
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