Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
It does not seem that you do since you tell me I am saying something other than what I am saying. I know what I mean, and I am saying what I mean.
Cheers.
No, I'm telling you that you think you are expressing a different concept, but are ultimately just arguing semantics. I tried to prove that in order to elminate the semantical argument, but you will not concede the position that we are all talking about discipline and punishment and it is simply the differences in the methods that are open for debate.
You stubbornly insist that discipline and punishment are separate topics and insist that you practice some third concept that you gleaned from these books without defining what that is. I thought I've laid out a pretty convincing argument that you are wrong in terms of semantics and was hoping to advance the discussion beyond that point, but you just want to throw in the towel.
I'll answer my own question about cleaning up that I posed to you...
I have explained to my kids that it is respectful and expected of people to clean up after themselves. It is important that we express pride in our home and part of that is keeping it clean and neat. It also shows appreciation on their part for the things that people give them by taking care of the toys properly. We have also reinforced the point that cleaning up our toys properly means we don't lose pieces and can find things when we want them.
There. I have now established a clear expectation, I want them to clean up their toys. I have explained to them (obviously in simpler language) what this expectation is and why it is important.
Now we get to the interesting part, what do we do when they fail to meet the expectation. Well, in my house it means that the toys that they failed to clean up are now taken away until they demonstrate compliance with my expectation. This consequence is presented to them upfront and based on my knowing that it is an effective punishment for my children in this situation.
There. I have now punished them for not living up to my expectation. I have engaged in discipline. I don't think you would find anything objectionable to my method and it is pretty much what your books advocate.
Now that we have cleared the semantical air, we get to the issue of spanking. When we have reached the point where they have failed to meet a clearly defined expectation with a stated consequence is spanking an effective form of punishment?
IMO, yes, within the context of certain situations and dependent on the child it can be an effective means of reinforcing positive and progressive discipline.
No, I'm telling you that you think you are expressing a different concept, but are ultimately just arguing semantics.
You are simply wrong. Which is why I am choosing not to discuss this with you. The fact that you don't understand what I am saying means it is fruitless to persist.
If you ARE interested in what I am trying to say, someone is discussing it in a thoughtful and reasonable manner over in the other thread. More detail can be found there.
You are simply wrong. Which is why I am choosing not to discuss this with you. The fact that you don't understand what I am saying means it is fruitless to persist.
Cheers.
I don't understand what you are saying because I haven't read the same books...we've been over that one. If I am wrong, then prove me wrong with something more than a link to buy a book.
Quote:
Originally Posted by somebodynew
If you ARE interested in what I am trying to say, someone is discussing it in a thoughtful and reasonable manner over in the other thread. More detail can be found there.
Where was I not being thoughtful and reasonable? I'll see you in the other thread.
I don't understand what you are saying because I haven't read the same books...we've been over that one. If I am wrong, then prove me wrong with something more than a link to buy a book.
I have said quite a bit in this thread we are in and in this thread
This is actually a neat example because it speaks to why I don't equate punishment (consequences if you like) and discipline.
If you are attending to self esteem in the area of being, if you role play conflict resolution skills in preschool, if when they are toddlers and preschoolers they understand that in order to be in the presence of others, you have to treat others nicely or you can't play, etcetera and so forth, you aren't that likely to end up with a bully.
That said a person does not have the right to be nasty to someone else. If they were, they cannot be in the presence of that person. Ever. Containment is needed. If that means they need to be supervised at detention during recess or if it means that they sit by themselves in the classroom or do not leave the house then so be it. WHEN they can behave like a human being THEN they can resume the priveledges of a human being.
The difference between that and say grounding them may seem small. But in the former case, the child is responsible for behaving in order to regain the freedom vs waiting out an arbitrary grounding period after which he may choose to resume bullying.
...
Well, imagine that! The more you post, the more I realize we are on the same page! Only difference is, what you call discipline, natural consequences, or whatever, I call punishment. If your child is picking on another child, and they are told until they can be nice they will be supervised at all time, contained in detention during recess, and cannot leave the house until they can behave like a human being, that is a punishment. It is something that YOU as a parent would dictate, and enforce, until you felt they learned their lesson. Being kept contained indoors and watched at all times is not a natural effect of being mean, it is something that is imposed on them, and with good reason. Then, if that didn't work, it would be necessary to find a different method of discipline, punishment, or whatever you want to to call it, to get your point across.
So basically, it's just a different choice of words, but the same method.
Well, imagine that! The more you post, the more I realize we are on the same page! Only difference is, what you call discipline, natural consequences, or whatever, I call punishment.
I did not really thing otherwise. I am going to start a different thread on what ELSE is required in an effective discipline strategy than just "consequences".
Quote:
If your child is picking on another child, and they are told until they can be nice they will be supervised at all time, contained in detention during recess, and cannot leave the house until they can behave like a human being, that is a punishment. It is something that YOU as a parent would dictate, and enforce, until you felt they learned their lesson. Being kept contained indoors and watched at all times is not a natural effect of being mean, it is something that is imposed on them, and with good reason. Then, if that didn't work, it would be necessary to find a different method of discipline, punishment, or whatever you want to to call it, to get your point across.
So basically, it's just a different choice of words, but the same method.
The people I have spoken to call them logical consequences. The desire is to avoid arbitrary consequences which distract from the lesson at hand.
Here we go, I will lay out the concepts from the above thread again and merge them with the topics of this one...
The problem we are having here and in the other thread is that people are continually muddying the concept of discipline, punishment, spanking, etc. as if they are not one in the same. This does not allow us to discuss the issue of "spanking" and its effectiveness as a tool in an otherwise positive and progressive discipline plan. somebodynew spent a good chunk of time semi-arguing with me in the other thread that these were all somehow different concepts based on semantics of words used here like "rule scaffold", but that isn't the case.
As parents our end goal is to produce responsible, empathetic and self-sufficient adults. To that end they need to learn what are the expectations for their behavior and learn that there are consequences for not meeting those expectations. Self-discipline is attained when someone understands inherently what is expected and understands the consequences for the action. Self-discipline is taught and how you teach it is what we are ultimately discussing.
Discipline can involve many different methods and concepts including different methods and concepts of punishment which are INHERENTLY a part of any discipline. You CANNOT discipline without punishment even if you want to use a different word to make it sound nicer.
So, with that said, I think most of us agree that an effective discipline method involves setting clear understanding and boundaries and teaching elements about why those boundaries exist and are important. In fact 90% of the argument going on here is assuming that we are talking about spanking vs. that method of discipline and that is simply not true. A parent who simply gives time outs without any of the other elements mentioned above is failing just as miserably as a parent who simply spanks without any of them above. So, can we please move past that sticking point since this is not what most of us are talking about.
This gets us to the next topic and layer of disciplince. The establishment of punishments/consequences when we fail to meet the clearly defined boundaries and expectations. Now, I find it interesting that somebodynew is saying that punishment/consequence aren't a part of discipline, while simultaneously rattling off instances of punishment for bad behavior. For instance, making a bully sit in supervised detention and not being allowed around other kids until they model the expected behavior...guess what, that's punishment.
So, what is the goal of punishment. The goal of punishment is to reinforce the point that there are consequences to our actions. Ideally we create logical consequences in order to SIMULATE natural consequences. No one can stand around waiting for a child who is drawing on the walls to realize that by doing so they are ruining the home. So, we create a logical consequence. You color on the walls, we take away your crayons or make you clean the wall or make you repaint the wall, etc. all based on efficacy and age appropriateness.
Within the boundaries of that concept the question then becomes is spanking ever a logical and/or natural consequence to a childs action? If we can find a situation where it is then we have proven that spanking is in fact justified and effective. Does that mean it is the only consequence, no. Does it mean it is the best, no. Does it mean it is really 100% necessary when there are other options (and there are other options)...it depends. I say it depends because I do truly believe that it can be part of a parents consequence/punishment tool bag. It can also serve as a logical and natural consequence to an action...
Sibling A (who is 6) punches sibling B (who is 4) in the face. The parent had already laid out a clear boundary that hitting was not going to be tolerated. They stated that the consequence for hitting was going to be spanking. The parent spanks the offender and explains that we don't hit people because it hurts and when we hit other people they are going to hit us back and they could really hurt us. That is a logical consequence to an action. You hit someone, chances are you are being hit back and it is going to hurt. Some may argue with that and they aren't wrong to, there are other options to use, but in that case the spanking served the purpose of providing a clear, logical and natural consequence to an action.
Here is my thought on spanking. It's really quite simple, and has no flowery language.
When a young child does something they shouldn't do, and they are immediately spanked or smacked, they will learn to equate that action/behavior with pain. This is something a child as young as one can understand. Once the child has developed reasoning behavior and shows some understanding of logic and the concept of consequences, other methods of discipline may be used to correct them.
Have you ever witnessed someone trying to reason with a 2 year old? It's almost funny, if you don't already know that the parent is wasting their breath, and their time and teaching the child nothing in return.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
