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Old 11-04-2008, 10:41 AM
 
Location: Visitation between Wal-Mart & Home Depot
8,307 posts, read 38,734,446 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ADVentive View Post
I agree that children should be taught basic fundamental respect for others. But I also don't have a problem with lessons geared toward tolerance of specific groups during events such as National Ally Week.
Disagree. Teachers and journalists should be totally objective. If you can perceive bias, an article or lesson is a failure. For that matter, if a kindergarten lesson CAN be biased it is probably innapropriate for children of that age. Fundamental learning should have nothing to do with political socialization.

And yes, we have come to a point where ALL journalism is a failure. Education must be held to a higher standard.
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Old 11-04-2008, 10:58 AM
 
Location: Hillsborough
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimboburnsy View Post
Disagree. Teachers and journalists should be totally objective. If you can perceive bias, an article or lesson is a failure. For that matter, if a kindergarten lesson CAN be biased it is probably innapropriate for children of that age. Fundamental learning should have nothing to do with political socialization.

And yes, we have come to a point where ALL journalism is a failure. Education must be held to a higher standard.
Is your problem with teaching kids to be tolerant of any specified group at all? Would you be okay with a lesson on being tolerant based on race, gender, or religion, etc? Or is your problem just with teaching kids to be tolerant in the case of sexual orientation?
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Old 11-04-2008, 11:40 AM
 
Location: Visitation between Wal-Mart & Home Depot
8,307 posts, read 38,734,446 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ADVentive View Post
Is your problem with teaching kids to be tolerant of any specified group at all? Would you be okay with a lesson on being tolerant based on race, gender, or religion, etc? Or is your problem just with teaching kids to be tolerant in the case of sexual orientation?
A five year old is completely innocent. I don't believe that a child in kindergarten benefits from general or specific sensitivity training. If anything it makes the kids more aware of their differences and clues them in to the tension adults in their lives feel. If an educator becomes concerned with a child's behavior, he or she needs to approach the parents and make them aware of the concern. From that point the parents are responsible for corrections at home and the school is responsible for corrections at school. Otherwise, "there won't be no trouble 'less you start some."

My problem is with presenting an election ballot to children that they can't possibly understand the nuances of. I also have a problem with the apparent attempt to compell tolerance. That's impossible. The only thing that will fix the issues we adults have is time and exposure (the kids will get exposure on their own, we just have to wait it out).
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Old 11-04-2008, 12:07 PM
 
Location: Hillsborough
2,825 posts, read 6,917,655 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimboburnsy View Post
A five year old is completely innocent. I don't believe that a child in kindergarten benefits from general or specific sensitivity training. If anything it makes the kids more aware of their differences and clues them in to the tension adults in their lives feel. If an educator becomes concerned with a child's behavior, he or she needs to approach the parents and make them aware of the concern. From that point the parents are responsible for corrections at home and the school is responsible for corrections at school. Otherwise, "there won't be no trouble 'less you start some."

My problem is with presenting an election ballot to children that they can't possibly understand the nuances of. I also have a problem with the apparent attempt to compell tolerance. That's impossible. The only thing that will fix the issues we adults have is time and exposure (the kids will get exposure on their own, we just have to wait it out).
So you don't think that kids in kindergarden bully or exclude others based on perceived differences?
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Old 11-04-2008, 12:37 PM
 
Location: Visitation between Wal-Mart & Home Depot
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ADVentive View Post
So you don't think that kids in kindergarden bully or exclude others based on perceived differences?
I certainly never said that. What I said was that kindergarteners are innocent. They will naturally, and innocently, attempt to organize a pecking order. The impetus is on educators to identify bullying, clue the parents in and nip it in the bud case-by-case. A big kid bullying a smaller kid of a similar background is no more or less egregious than a big kid bullying a smaller kid of a dissimilar background.
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Old 11-04-2008, 12:58 PM
 
Location: Hillsborough
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimboburnsy View Post
I certainly never said that. What I said was that kindergarteners are innocent. They will naturally, and innocently, attempt to organize a pecking order. The impetus is on educators to identify bullying, clue the parents in and nip it in the bud case-by-case. A big kid bullying a smaller kid of a similar background is no more or less egregious than a big kid bullying a smaller kid of a dissimilar background.
I agree with you that the big kid bullying the smaller kid is no different than bullying for other reasons. I would be in favor of multiple lessons on bullying including bullying in general as well as lessons on specific examples of bullying, such as in this case.

I don't agree that bullying should only be dealt with on a case by case basis. I think bullying should also be dealt with on a classroom-wide scale via classroom lessons on the ways that we treat each other.

What is your opinion of the kindergarden "you can't say you can't play" rule? (ala Vivian Paley)
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Old 11-04-2008, 01:27 PM
 
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I taught middle school. Every year gave the same speech on appropriate language & gestures. Every year had some student tell another student to F off or that he/she was gay. One year had a student who insisted on telling me that directions were "b&ll#hi&". Obviously I called the parents. Response: "She hears it here all the time b/c we are ok with that word.". The parents fought any disciplinary/remedial action b/c they approved of the word in their home. School sided with the parents. Schools don't like lawsuits.

The base of all this lies in the family structure & what the child is hearing & seeing at home. To some extent, pledge cards have no impact on a child that has grown up in this sort of environment.

I had to teach social awareness & core value classes. They were so scripted by the state it was pitiful. Bored kids to death. Could only imagine what a waste they'd be to 5 yr olds who want to color, draw, play & be active. But it has to be done so by 1st grade they already dislike school b/c it is so structured & censored.

They need to be talked to as kids. Not signing forms & sitting through classes b/c spoon feed politically correct words for the moment & whatever fits that districts agenda for the political season. Most decent educators have all sorts of ways they instill this in the classroom environment. But now, everyone has to report to the state thus ridiculous forms being sent home. Parents who use that language in their home could care less.

The whole point behind preschool & kindergarten is to introduce children to the school environment & intertwined with that is social awareness, kind words, tolerance, acceptance, sharing, etc.

It's extreme to send home this sort of literature at this level. It makes an issue out of something that does not have to be an issue.

There comes a point were it IS NOT the teacher's responsibility. It lies with the parents. Everyone wants the school's to be the cure-all for how kids behave, act, learn, respond.....

Well, parents have to wake the heck up & take on the same amount of responsibility they accept the teacher to take on.

Most educators do use methods to discourage bullying or name calling. And based on what most educators have to accomplish in an 8 hour day, the severe cases are dealt with on a case to case basis.

I spend all day working with my 3yr old on how we treat people & talk. I don't need a form from his teacing telling me to do so.
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Old 11-04-2008, 01:36 PM
 
Location: Visitation between Wal-Mart & Home Depot
8,307 posts, read 38,734,446 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ADVentive View Post
I agree with you that the big kid bullying the smaller kid is no different than bullying for other reasons. I would be in favor of multiple lessons on bullying including bullying in general as well as lessons on specific examples of bullying, such as in this case.

I don't agree that bullying should only be dealt with on a case by case basis. I think bullying should also be dealt with on a classroom-wide scale via classroom lessons on the ways that we treat each other.

What is your opinion of the kindergarden "you can't say you can't play" rule? (ala Vivian Paley)
My problem is with injecting adult politics into kindergarten lessons.

I just looked up an article on Paley's rule. That's the first I've heard of it. Seems "common sensical" enough and you would have to be Ricky Bobby to object to Walker and Texas Ranger learning in such an environment. I'm not decrying trying to teach "fair"; I think that is very much part of human socialization. I just don't like anyone leading other people's children to political waters and trying to make them drink.
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Old 11-04-2008, 01:44 PM
 
Location: Hillsborough
2,825 posts, read 6,917,655 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimboburnsy View Post
My problem is with injecting adult politics into kindergarten lessons.

I just looked up an article on Paley's rule. That's the first I've heard of it. Seems "common sensical" enough and you would have to be Ricky Bobby to object to Walker and Texas Ranger learning in such an environment. I'm not decrying trying to teach "fair"; I think that is very much part of human socialization. I just don't like anyone leading other people's children to political waters and trying to make them drink.
Then my question again is if you would have a problem with it if they taught a lesson regarding bullying due to race? Would you consider that political too?
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Old 11-04-2008, 02:07 PM
 
Location: Visitation between Wal-Mart & Home Depot
8,307 posts, read 38,734,446 times
Reputation: 7185
Quote:
Originally Posted by ADVentive View Post
Then my question again is if you would have a problem with it if they taught a lesson regarding bullying due to race? Would you consider that political too?
I think that's needlessly making the kids aware of a problem that their parents have.

For example, let's imagine a classroom where Paley's rule is in effect. The kids can't say "You can't play." They understand that. They play together. Assuming diversity amongst the students, they are exposed to people of different backgrounds. If you can get the kids to play together and be fair, completely ignoring race, religion, ethnicity etc., what benefit could racial sensitivity lessons possibly convey?
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