At what point would you 'step in'?

[Thursday007]

Originally Posted by Pandamonium

Before you try to take him in: Do you have a point where you throw this kid out or send him back? Is there any point where you turn your back on him? He steals your car and wrecks it? He steals your car and hits someone one, severely injuring or killing that person? Is it having to go into a store that you would normally go to but are so humiliated because that child has tried to steal from them? Is it when you find out that he has broken into your neighbors houses and stolen from them?

Is there a point that you call the police to have him arrested because he hits you?

What is or rather do you have a point where you quit or give up?

Well of course you have to establish rules and limitations - it's all part of it. Adjustments were made where he stays at his other grandmother's on the weekend to give each a break and things like chores ect. were changed and developed as they went along. Nothing is fool proof. But it was understood to him under no uncertain circumstances - this was his last chance and he had no where else to go. The only obligation she put into this was to get him his high school diploma after that it was up to him what he would do. And before he moved in with her all of us sat at the kitchen table - his parents, my mom and him and it was all discussed so everyone was on the same page.

[Pandamonium]

Originally Posted by Thursday007

Well of course you have to establish rules and limitations - it's all part of it. Adjustments were made where he stays at his other grandmother's on the weekend to give each a break and things like chores ect. were changed and developed as they went along. Nothing is fool proof. But it was understood to him under no uncertain circumstances - this was his last chance and he had no where else to go. The only obligation she put into this was to get him his high school diploma after that it was up to him what he would do. And before he moved in with her all of us sat at the kitchen table - his parents, my mom and him and it was all discussed so everyone was on the same page.

Actually, my question was for the op. Sorry about the confusion.

[Thursday007]

No problem I figured it was I was just throwing out some examples to consider to go along with the questions you posed and how it was handled.

[Pandamonium]

I understand.

I'm looking for the breaking point.

[jimboburnsy]

Originally Posted by ravein

To be blunt, my husband's nephew is an annoying little pain in the butt. He's 15 and thinks that he can do whatever he pleases whenever he pleases. His dad took off when he was a baby, he grew up with a stepfather (who he was always butting heads with) - the stepfather was always the disciplinarian in the home (he could 'kind of' keep the kid under control) and then he passed away when the kid was 13 (it's hard to tell how he really feels about this, it was sudden, he was shocked for a while). And since then the kid has been a COMPLETE nightmare, his mom really struggles with him.

He disrespects mom all the time, he wanders off from home, he's always in trouble at school (he got kicked out of one school a few months after his stepfather died), he's smart to the teacher's and principal, he's always messing around in school, doing silly things, he got suspended from the basketball team for starting a fight during a game, he doesn't care to follow rules. Recently he's been caught by police with alcohol and while driving his friend's car without a licence (he thinks he's invincible in all ways - he thinks his reckless behavior won't harm him or anyone else and he thinks he'll never get caught - and when he does he doesn't care). This isn't a whole new attitude since his stepfather died, it's just that his stepdad isn't around to try and contain it, he's always been reckless and stupid - he got into trouble at elementary school for climbing on the roof of the school (amongst other things). My husband and I, and other family, are really concerned about the direction that he's going, and the company he's keeping - his friends are just the same, we assume they use at least marijuana. We don't want to lose him.

My husband is the person in the family who has had the most luck with getting him to listen. We've had him stay with us from time to time, in summer and things (when the mom and stepdad needed a break from the constant trouble and headaches he creates throughout the school year) and usually, after a turbulent start, the kid starts responding to his uncle. And by the end of his stay we're usually enjoying his company. He seems to respect my husband as a father figure. We don't live close to his sister and children (there's two younger kids aswell) so it's quite hard for my husband to involve himself but he really wants to step in and try to get this kid to listen. We've even spoken quite seriously about taking the kid in (yes, we're gluttons for punishment), our youngest child is a senior and our only child in the house so we'd have the time to share around. We haven't yet figured out the least awkward way of having that conversation with sister-in-law yet (so...can we have your kid?).

My sister-in-law's attitude is...well, I don't think that she wants to be seen asking for help, I think that she's trying to be strong and trying to show that she can cope without her husband. It's like she doesn't want to bother us with her problems, or admit that she can't control her own child. And she's quite stubborn and closed about it. I'm not really sure of the best way for us to approach her.

How would you approach this? Would you, as extended family, barge your way into a family that was trying to keep their problems internal? We're getting to the point where our concerns for this child are overriding her drive for privacy. We really want to DO something before he screws his life up.

If you feel like you can't live with yourself if you do not step in, by all means give it a shot. Before you jump in with both feet you should ask yourself if you will actually be able to help. Do you have a plan of attack? How are you going to get different results from everyone else in his life? Be very honest.

Trying to save someone who actually wants to drown can be pretty tricky and it will be impossible to keep yourself dry.

[Stratford, Ct. Resident]

Originally Posted by Ashburnite

You could also approach it under the pretext of getting him away from his friends who are a "bad influence" if that applies at all. Suggest that he get a new start in a new town with you.

I agree. This sounds like a good, non-judgemental approach for the OP to use.

[steelstress]

Your nephew needs an alpha male to keep him on the straight and narrow. He had that in his stepfather, and when he's in your home, he has your husband. If I were you, and it isn't detrimental to your household to take him, then do it. Tell your SIL the cold hard facts. He needs an alpha male authority figure, and she's not it, no matter how hard she tries. And all the loooovveeee in the world from his mom won't save him.

[ravein]

Originally Posted by Ashburnite

You could also approach it under the pretext of getting him away from his friends who are a "bad influence" if that applies at all. Suggest that he get a new start in a new town with you.

That could be a useful approach. I'm in two minds as to whether quietly skirting around the issues, like this, would be better, or laying it all out on the table...His mom has usually used the skirting around the issues method - the kid's visits to us during summers and holidays were always under the guise of going to see what life's like over here, go see what your cousins are up to. She was never blunt, it was never "We have to spend every waking moment worrying about what he's going to do next, the principal is the person most likely to be on the other end of the phone, we forget what the other children look like because he requires so much attention, we can't cope..."

Originally Posted by Thursday007

Don't get me wrong he didn't get perfect and my mother and him had their go arounds because she was now an authority figure - not just grandma - so be aware he may listen to his uncle now but the dynamics of their relationship will change.

Thanks for sharing Thursday007, it's good to hear of the positive change. We wouldn't expect perfect if we were to take him in, we'd want to be realistic. It sounds like it was a good move for your family to take - what was the mom's (your sister..?) attitude/reaction to it, she was accepting of the rest of the family stepping it? And how old was this boy?
Yes, my husband and I have discussed how it could change their relationship, I assume it would. Although I think we have the benefit of having been authority figures at periods throughout his life. We've always treated him the same as our children, always disciplined him the same as our children when he's stayed with us in the past. We never let our home become a hotel. We have a different relationship to him than to our other nieces and nephews. But if it were to be a longer term set-up I assume there'd be further changes.

Originally Posted by Pandamonium

Before you try to take him in: Do you have a point where you throw this kid out or send him back? Is there any point where you turn your back on him? He steals your car and wrecks it? He steals your car and hits someone one, severely injuring or killing that person? Is it having to go into a store that you would normally go to but are so humiliated because that child has tried to steal from them? Is it when you find out that he has broken into your neighbors houses and stolen from them?

Is there a point that you call the police to have him arrested because he hits you?

What is or rather do you have a point where you quit or give up?

Thanks for the perspective, to be perfectly honest we have not yet discussed what would result in him leaving. I wouldn't turn my back on him if he stole our car and wrecked it, and I wouldn't turn my back on him if he seriously injured or killed someone (both of which ARE very valid questions when it comes to this kid). And I would say with 99% certainty that my husband wouldn't either. We would stay beside him and support him, he'd need our support. He'd have to face the consequences and come to realise that he was accountable but we wouldn't give up on him. I'm not sure that my husband would have a point where he would give up.
Yes, I would call the police if he hit me. That could be my point, violence in the home. But he's never shown violence towards adults or authority figures (he has been in fights with other kids), so hopefully it wouldn't come up. He yells and argues with his mom, and slams doors but that's as far as it goes.

haggardhouseelf - All of your suggestions, they really are the most preferable approach that we would take, but we're a 4 hour flight away - this is our reason for discussing taking the kid in (and why we have him for several weeks when he does come to stay). We wish that we lived nearby so that we could do those kinds of things, I think they would be effective. The distance is tough. The school principal that he has at the moment seems like a good guy, and it seems that he's aware of the situation at home. I think that mom has been utilizing him at least - I did hear nephew complaining about being called into the principal's office after getting caught with alcohol by police, just to discuss things, so I think that mom must have decided to ask the principal to help out. I'm not sure how effective it was on nephew, he seemed to be in the opinion that it was none of the principal's business.

Originally Posted by Kaye02

I'd leave it alone, frankly, I fear you are asking for huge trouble. Possibly even legal trouble, if it doesn't work out well and the sister in law wants to get back at you, so to speak. I know you are just trying to help but it's just not your kid or your business.

I do agree that we're asking for huge trouble. I really don't think the sister in law would want to get back at us in anyway though, that's not her. I guess that we feel like he has become our business through the sister in law and the stepfather extending him into our family through having him stay with us from time to time. From where we stand, we kind of feel like we're already involved.

Originally Posted by jimboburnsy

Do you have a plan of attack? How are you going to get different results from everyone else in his life? Be very honest.

I guess we're relying on past experiences. On the fact that we do get the best behavior. My husband does have the biggest impact on him, probably because he is very firm with him and he doesn't back down. I think that the kid knows that his mom and grandparents will eventually give up on an issue. I remember the first time he stayed with us, he was only 8, and I thought he was a nightmare. But my husband's attitude was that we just had to keep at him. And it did work. I think that we established when he was 8 that in our house he doesn't disrespect us and he doesn't disobey us (of course everytime he arrives it takes him a while to remember), and I think that's where we have a step-up. How much that may change on a long term basis though...I don't know.

Originally Posted by steelstress

Your nephew needs an alpha male to keep him on the straight and narrow.

I agree with everything you said. And I like the way you put it.

Thanks for all your replies so far! They're very helpful.

[usmcmotort]

Put him up for adoption; that'll show him.

[malamute]

Originally Posted by haggardhouseelf

Hmmm... well if your husband really loves this guy and wants to help him... what about arranging a fishing trip or something for he and your husband? Or hunting? Or some kind of guy bonding thing that they could go out and blow off steam together?

If your husband really wants to help, it seems like maybe you should do something. Definitely make the offer to his mom, but then maybe try to think of other ways you might be able to enrich this boy's life without actually taking over, you know? If he is in school, you could even try volunteering at his school... I see aunts and grandparents volunteer quite a bit at my kid schools. And schools are always looking for ways to get more dads involved as children really do need more positive male role models. Your husband could even maybe pick him up from school one day a week and go to the batting cages or whatever... comic book store... just get some jamba juice or books or whatever he's into. Maybe try talking to the school's principal to get some ideas on how you and your husband could help. Schools can really be a good partner in turning kid's behaviors around. There might be a mentor or a teacher at the school that could help him, too. It takes a lot of communication and effort between parents and the school to make things work though. If his mom is depressed or uninvolved, maybe this is something you guys could do?

Those are great suggestions. That approach doesn't undermine the mother or make her feel inadequate but gets her much needed time off. Uncles can be great role models just by spending some time with nephews and nieces.