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I don't see that anyone's socio-economic status has anything to do with this. Anyone can have problems, doesn't matter what their zip code is. No one group gets a "pass" when it comes to examining problems at a societal level.
I think posters have been commenting on why other posters seem to feel qualified to pass judgment and invent potential reasons that this might have happened. Inventing reasons and Monday morning quarterbacking are not analysis.
The only way to avoid this is to analyze it. I don't believe in the "bad seed" genetics theory. I don't want to write it all off as just that. I don't believe that nothing can be done to prevent this kind of thing, that parents play no role in how their children turn out.
There have been other mass executions carried out at schools, like the Asian kid who gunned down kids at his university -- another child of a priveleged background where all the material and economic advantages are there.
These are different kinds of crimes from the inner city where a kid might bring a gun and target someone from an enemy gang but you never hear of an inner city child wanting to kill the entire school or just gun down people randomly.
What makes a well-off child who has been given everything money can buy and has been raised with all the correct liberal parenting decide that everyone in the whole school should be killed and by he and his friend? Again, I don't buy into the genetics reason that this is just some inborn trait he inherited in his genetic code.
The only way to avoid this is to analyze it. I don't believe in the "bad seed" genetics theory. I don't want to write it all off as just that. I don't believe that nothing can be done to prevent this kind of thing, that parents play no role in how their children turn out.
There have been other mass executions carried out at schools, like the Asian kid who gunned down kids at his university -- another child of a priveleged background where all the material and economic advantages are there.
These are different kinds of crimes from the inner city where a kid might bring a gun and target someone from an enemy gang but you never hear of an inner city child wanting to kill the entire school or just gun down people randomly.
What makes a well-off child who has been given everything money can buy and has been raised with all the correct liberal parenting decide that everyone in the whole school should be killed and by he and his friend? Again, I don't buy into the genetics reason that this is just some inborn trait he inherited in his genetic code.
I'm not the one who was suggesting genes over environment. And I'm not sure the poster who mentioned it originally was arguing it was purely a glitch in genetic code, either.
I was the one who thinks that "analyzing," when done by people who aren't informed as to what the actual risk factors for school shooting/suicide are, doesn't do anything but create hysteria and judgment. Which actually moves us further away from a solution, not closer to it. I think you and I can agree that there is a problem and that it does need a solution. I think we may just disagree on the most effective way to find it.
There have been other mass executions carried out at schools, like the Asian kid who gunned down kids at his university -- another child of a priveleged background where all the material and economic advantages are there.
Seung-Hui Cho did NOT come from a priviledge background...actually, far from it. He grew up in a modest townhome and his parents both worked at a dry cleaners.
He had been mentally evaluated in the past & even in a psych hospital. His parents stated, along with his sister, that he was just never let anyone in his world.
But we are talking about a culturally issue here...Asian cultures are notoriously known for not recognizing or accepting mental health care issues. Japan & China struggle with accepting terminal cancer as a legitimate issue as they consider it something that is given to a person due to doing something wrong.
I lived in Korea. The value of a person is found in how they work and their work ethic is ridiculous. Full day Saturday school with music lessons on Sunday for children. Basically, school is 7 days a week.
We have all heard of stories of teeangers in China or Thailand who kill themselves because they did not score high enough on a test.
A scorned leader in Japan or Korea just killed himself due to the shame he created.
It is a culture that believes in "shame" and that a person is to kill themselves rather than bring their family into "shame".
May not be genetics, but it is a learned trait passed on through generations.
His parents knew something wasn't right. He even spent time in a psychiartic hospital. But, it's not talked about. It's not discussed. It's pushed under the rug. He was a "shame" to the family b/c he was not mentally coherent. They didn't do a thing about it b/c in their culture, they are not to do anything about it. HE was to do something about it & he did....
The writing was all over the wall for the VA Tech incident.
As for Columbine, we have heard so, so very little from the parents. And correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that there was possible domestic violence in one of the homes. It is very unlikely that both of these boys grew up in Ward & June Cleaver homes.
Again, we all screw up sometime in our lives as parents. And these parents screwed up at the worst possible time. I'm sure they'd admit that if asked. But, really, do we need to pound it into them how THEY messed up? Not going to change anything. We can only go to bed each night "hoping" we did the best for that day for our children.
These are different kinds of crimes from the inner city where a kid might bring a gun and target someone from an enemy gang but you never hear of an inner city child wanting to kill the entire school or just gun down people randomly.
Yep, happened in the inner city of Cleveland, Ohio last year. 15 yr old boy was sick of being picked on by the other kids and mad at a teacher for yelling at him. Random targets throughout the school. No rhyme or reason.
Drive by shootings...many times those are completely random. Again, Lakewood, OH...5yr old out on her bike was shot & killed by a random shooting. Teenagers who were caught showed no emotion & admitted to just shooting her to shot her.
It's not so clear cut as you want to make it.
If kids want to kill, they will and they will figure out how to do it regardless of economic background.
Basically, as you state, we should move to the inner city and that way our children will only kill other children if it is gang related & not something prompted by mental illness.
His parents knew something wasn't right. He even spent time in a psychiartic hospital. But, it's not talked about. It's not discussed. It's pushed under the rug. He was a "shame" to the family b/c he was not mentally coherent. They didn't do a thing about it b/c in their culture, they are not to do anything about it. HE was to do something about it & he did....
Again, we all screw up sometime in our lives as parents. And these parents screwed up at the worst possible time. I'm sure they'd admit that if asked. But, really, do we need to pound it into them how THEY messed up? Not going to change anything. We can only go to bed each night "hoping" we did the best for that day for our children.
Yes, it can be pushed under the rug. Not just by driven to perform Asians but also by well-to-do Americans who push hard on their children to sometimes be what they are not.
I highly doubt the parents are on here reading - and it's not about pounding them, but it would be good to analyze what went wrong with these kids who wanted to murder an entire school.
It takes more than "hoping" to raise kids right, you don't buy them all the best things money can buy, get them into a prestigious college and just hope it all turns out. What about instilling values, a moral value system, teaching them right and wrong? Teaching them empathy and concern for others? Maybe teaching them they aren't gods that have the right to take the lives of others, countering their nihilism.
If kids want to kill, they will and they will figure out how to do it regardless of economic background.
As far as the economic backgrounds it seems to me more about that if a child comes from a poor background it's fine to analyze why they kill if they kill but when it comes to well-off liberal backgrounds, no one wants to go there.
You must just assume that while the welfare mother in the inner city with abusive boyfriends did something wrong when it came to raising her kids, the well off suburban couple with the perfect appearing lifestyle did everything right so we just just take it that it was all bad luck (bad seed genetics theory), there but for the grace of God go I and all that.
My point is - you can analyze the inner city types who do drive by shootings but not the well off privileged types -- when something goes wrong with them, it suddenly becomes unfair to analyze and it just happened for no reason at all.
It takes more than "hoping" to raise kids right, you don't buy them all the best things money can buy, get them into a prestigious college and just hope it all turns out. What about instilling values, a moral value system, teaching them right and wrong? Teaching them empathy and concern for others? Maybe teaching them they aren't gods that have the right to take the lives of others, countering their nihilism.
Really, because they way I see it there are no guarantees in life....I have taught these lessons and much more to my kids, yet I still hope (and pray) that they have learned from them.
Teens aren't robots and their peer group takes on significant importance in this phase of development...and sometimes, despite great parenting...teens make bad choices. With a house full of teens, I have learned never to assume my children will always make good choices and I never say "my child would never do that" anymore. Teens can be very good at hiding things from their parents or telling their parents the words they want to hear.
You and I have no idea what kind of parenting went on in either of these homes..
I say kudos to this woman for telling her story and my heart aches for her and her family.
What makes a well-off child who has been given everything money can buy and has been raised with all the correct liberal parenting decide that everyone in the whole school should be killed and by he and his friend?
Again, privilege appears to have little to do with it. If anything, it can often work against a kid and cause him to feel more guilt as to why he's different or can't appreciate what he's got or figure out why it can't make him happy. As Klebold wrote in his journals--apparently not made available until the police released them six months after the crime--he had "everything": a good family, a nice home, a couple of friends (or so he said). But he had a tremendous amount of self loathing. It must have been awful...much worse than anyone imagined. As his mother wrote in her article, one of his teachers commented that his writing in class was "disturbing." But when she asked to see examples of it during a conference, it wasn't followed through upon. There appeared to be many things like this that slipped through the cracks.
I think that what we as parents are searching for is preventive; no one is attempting to incriminate anyone. We're looking for some way to make sure that our kid (or the neighbor's kid) is understood. That we see potential signs in our kid, the kid we coach, are a scout leader to, to whom we talk to in the neighborhood. That something like this will not happen to our family or in our community.
My question is, where did these boys get the MONEY to purchase guns, bomb making materials? Guns, and ammunition are not cheap. The parents must have been giving these kids alot of money. Neither one of them had a job.
Which leads me to think, that spending money does not equal good parenting. It is time, time spent with the child, and that starts when they are young, not at age 14. I honestly do not think that these parents even knew their kids. And that is sad. It would be interesting to have a "time-study" done, of the last 6 months of both of those boys, and ask the parents how many hours they spent with their sons, and how many hours did they spend at work, to have a fancy house, fancy cars, spending money, and everything of the "american dream".
I am not judging the parents, but it is something to think about. And I am not putting down working mom's, I am one myself. But, I will admit, that when given the choice of a higher paying job, that would have made me be away more often, and have to work more, I choose a lower paying job, that was less demanding. I knew what was important in our home, that is my value. We lived in a small apt, with an old car, no cell phones, or fancy clothes. And my daughter definitely did not have enough spending money to buy guns.
My question is, where did these boys get the MONEY to purchase guns, bomb making materials? Guns, and ammunition are not cheap. The parents must have been giving these kids alot of money. Neither one of them had a job.
Oh yes they did. Both boys worked at a pizza shop. They had held other jobs, too. Dylan and Eric both worked. That is where they got the money and the contact to buy the guns,etc, for them.
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