Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Parenting
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
Old 03-06-2010, 10:57 PM
 
6,066 posts, read 14,998,906 times
Reputation: 7188

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
But they KNEW what they did was of value. THAT is the difference today. Whether they thought about it, consciously, or not, they KNEW what they did mattered.

I'm not debating whether they thought much about it. I'm debating that they KNEW what they did was of value. It was easy to see the value whether anyone said thank you or not. No one had to tell them what they did was valuable. No one had to explain why it had to be done. Today, my kids don't get why I want to run the dishwasher before we go to bed. As far as they are concerned, there's no harm done if they leave a dish on the table over night and, really, there isn't any harm done.

There is NOTHING my kids do today that contributes to the well being of the family. They do chores but they're just chores today. No one goes hungry or thirsty or gets cold if they are not done. No animals are harmed. No crops lost. What they do, really doesn't matter. Heck, what I do at home doesn't really matter. It only takes about 6 hours a week to clean a house top to bottom. Not that it stays that way but I could start upstairs and end mopping the basement floors in less than one work day and I can hire that out for about $75. Way back when, there were hundreds of hours of work to be done so everyone had to pull their weight. Children were valuable members of the family. Couples actually had kids to have help. Today, they're treated more like pets. We feed them, clothe them, train them to do a few tricks and tell them how pretty, smart, wonderful they are and think they should have great self esteem as a result. Unlike a dog that fetches the paper, my kids get no joy out of being petted and told "Good girl" when they put a dish in the dishwasher. In fact, they rebel against that because they know it's just a mindless chore.

Childhood has changed, drastically, in the past 60 or so years. It's now about education and preparation for a future contribution to THEIR OWN families. It should come as no suprise that they indoctrinate with peers at a very young age. That IS what we are now preparing them for. They're not taking over the family farm when mom and dad are too old to work it anymore. They're going out on their own to form their own family unit and they, in turn, will focus on educating their children not making sure they make a contribution to family. It's just the way things are now. As scary as this world is, I'd love to figure out how to hold them close like you could 100 years ago simply because they were part of the family team and everyone and their efforts mattered from a very young age.
I hear you, Ivory. You're bringing up some really interesting points. And you're so totally right - things have changed drastically - even since I was a kid and I'm only in my early 30's!

Kids these days may not have all the chores and responsibilities that kids had years ago who grew up on the family farms did, but if they've got good parents with any sense in their brains, they do have expectations they must meet, goals set that they must work toward, and a set of family house rules to abide by. Sure there are a lot of families today who seem to turn their kids loose and not set any expectations or standards of living for them, but that's not true for all families. It's certainly not true in ours.

We hold our kids close by being involved with them. I have spent years being in their classrooms volunteering. I'm a sahm and am always able to be there for them at any time. My husband takes off work for field trips and special no-school days when he can, and makes an effort to be involved with school projects and homework and reading every day. We also make efforts to know their friends by having their friends over and talking with them. We don't just let them shut themselves off in their rooms to play video games - we actually hang out with our kids and their friends. We do things like paintball and lazer tag and DDR. It's actually petty easy to keep your kids close. You just have to spend time with them, follow their lead at times, find joy in the things they find joy in, listen to them, and respect them. We're also really honest with our kids. We've always felt if they are old enough to ask the question - they are old enough for the honest answer. So we've always had these great, long, honest conversations with our kids. Now, they are 14 and 10, we talk about everything. And I mean everything. We never had that nervous "sex talk" with our kids because we've been talking about sex for years, since they first wondered about it years ago. Lately our 14 year old has been thinking about asking a girl out and so that's been the topic of conversation lately... what they might do on the date, how HE would pay for it, what his expectations are, how he should behave, etc.

Anyway - I'm writing too much. I just think friends/peers are very important to all of us who have grown up, as they are to our kids, but I think parents INVOLVEMENT is equally as important. Especially as they get older. And a lot of the time they might not come right out and directly ask you something - but they are watching and listening. It's one reason why, too, I think many parents justify and defend the one parent staying home thing so fiercely. Once you do it that way, you really see how important it is to truly be able to be there for your kids. The teen years are tricky, and they need you just as much if not more - in a different kind of way - than they did when they were younger.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 03-07-2010, 06:20 AM
 
1,219 posts, read 4,208,389 times
Reputation: 591
Wow. I'm almost speechless

In my family, our children are indeed valued and important members of the family. Each of them contributes, in some various ways, to the well-being of us all. Admittedly, they're not growing all our food or hunting , but they contribute in important ways, in the perimeters of the society we live in presently. They absolutely help keep the home running. We also emphasize 'service to others' as a family, and all participate in that. That is important in society today, there is a lot of need out there.

If you are feeling that the kids' contributions are of no value, and that they rebel against it...you might want to reconsider your parenting stratagies. Sorry to be so blunt. But I do not accept the idea that kids' contributions to the family today are not valuable.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-07-2010, 07:31 AM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,386 posts, read 35,416,732 times
Reputation: 14692
Quote:
Originally Posted by wanderintonc View Post
Wow. I'm almost speechless

In my family, our children are indeed valued and important members of the family. Each of them contributes, in some various ways, to the well-being of us all. Admittedly, they're not growing all our food or hunting , but they contribute in important ways, in the perimeters of the society we live in presently. They absolutely help keep the home running. We also emphasize 'service to others' as a family, and all participate in that. That is important in society today, there is a lot of need out there.

If you are feeling that the kids' contributions are of no value, and that they rebel against it...you might want to reconsider your parenting stratagies. Sorry to be so blunt. But I do not accept the idea that kids' contributions to the family today are not valuable.
In what way do your children contribute value to the family? How do their efforts improve family life?

I am not saying children aren't valued by parents. I'm saying they know that they do not play a valuable role in the family. Take their labors out and the family continues just fine. Kids know what they do is of little consequence and I think that affects how they view what they do and how they view family.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-07-2010, 07:38 AM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,386 posts, read 35,416,732 times
Reputation: 14692
Quote:
Originally Posted by haggardhouseelf View Post
I hear you, Ivory. You're bringing up some really interesting points. And you're so totally right - things have changed drastically - even since I was a kid and I'm only in my early 30's!

Kids these days may not have all the chores and responsibilities that kids had years ago who grew up on the family farms did, but if they've got good parents with any sense in their brains, they do have expectations they must meet, goals set that they must work toward, and a set of family house rules to abide by. Sure there are a lot of families today who seem to turn their kids loose and not set any expectations or standards of living for them, but that's not true for all families. It's certainly not true in ours.

We hold our kids close by being involved with them. I have spent years being in their classrooms volunteering. I'm a sahm and am always able to be there for them at any time. My husband takes off work for field trips and special no-school days when he can, and makes an effort to be involved with school projects and homework and reading every day. We also make efforts to know their friends by having their friends over and talking with them. We don't just let them shut themselves off in their rooms to play video games - we actually hang out with our kids and their friends. We do things like paintball and lazer tag and DDR. It's actually petty easy to keep your kids close. You just have to spend time with them, follow their lead at times, find joy in the things they find joy in, listen to them, and respect them. We're also really honest with our kids. We've always felt if they are old enough to ask the question - they are old enough for the honest answer. So we've always had these great, long, honest conversations with our kids. Now, they are 14 and 10, we talk about everything. And I mean everything. We never had that nervous "sex talk" with our kids because we've been talking about sex for years, since they first wondered about it years ago. Lately our 14 year old has been thinking about asking a girl out and so that's been the topic of conversation lately... what they might do on the date, how HE would pay for it, what his expectations are, how he should behave, etc.

Anyway - I'm writing too much. I just think friends/peers are very important to all of us who have grown up, as they are to our kids, but I think parents INVOLVEMENT is equally as important. Especially as they get older. And a lot of the time they might not come right out and directly ask you something - but they are watching and listening. It's one reason why, too, I think many parents justify and defend the one parent staying home thing so fiercely. Once you do it that way, you really see how important it is to truly be able to be there for your kids. The teen years are tricky, and they need you just as much if not more - in a different kind of way - than they did when they were younger.
NOTHING we can do today can replace the sense of belonging our children lost when we no longer NEEDED their labors to keep the family running. It's all fun and games now. Entertainment and proximity cannot replace what our children have lost.

Unfortunately, the things we have replaced their labors with are things of long term value, like education, and children often can't see the value in that because they live, very much, in today. I teach high school and many of my students see school as a waste of time. The problem is, we've gone from a time when a young child could make a contribution to the family to a time when kids are expected to go to school until they are 22 and THEN start making a contribution. IMO, that contribution would help children have a sense of belonging. A sense of being a team member. A sense of importance. Which is why team sports is good training for kids. Going on field trips with them doesn't compare. You're not forming a family team in which each members contribution is important to the success of the whole, which is what our children have lost.

Things like volunteering in classrooms and on field trips are also new behaviors. You never saw this in the 1960's. Our parents never went to our rooms or on field trips. The only contact our parents had with theachers was for parent teacher conferences. No one micromanaged our educations, yet we turned out just fine. This is yet another example of trying to recapture that sense of importance. Women are no longer needed at home so they're inventing things that "need" to be done and attaching importance to them that isn't there in order to feign that sense of importance. Unfortuntately, that doesn't make such things important.

Honestly, I see no difference between my kids and other kids because I did volunteer in their rooms and go on field trips. The school my children attended had so many parent volunteers that they limited what parents could do. All of them doing the same thing I was. Attaching importance to something that was never needed before and, therefore, unimportant in the big scheme of things.

This is just more evidence of how things have changed and diminished the importance of the roles of children and women. We (children and women) are trying to find our sense of importance again. Children have fewer opportunities to do so. Parent skip days and field trips are a poor replacement for KNOWING that your labors are important to the survivial of your family. To KNOWING you are a contributing member of a team working towards a common goal.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-07-2010, 09:40 AM
 
16,978 posts, read 16,206,503 times
Reputation: 28219
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
NOTHING we can do today can replace the sense of belonging our children lost when we no longer NEEDED their labors to keep the family running. It's all fun and games now. Entertainment and proximity cannot replace what our children have lost.

Unfortunately, the things we have replaced their labors with are things of long term value, like education, and children often can't see the value in that because they live, very much, in today. I teach high school and many of my students see school as a waste of time. The problem is, we've gone from a time when a young child could make a contribution to the family to a time when kids are expected to go to school until they are 22 and THEN start making a contribution. IMO, that contribution would help children have a sense of belonging. A sense of being a team member. A sense of importance. Which is why team sports is good training for kids. Going on field trips with them doesn't compare. You're not forming a family team in which each members contribution is important to the success of the whole, which is what our children have lost.

Things like volunteering in classrooms and on field trips are also new behaviors. You never saw this in the 1960's. Our parents never went to our rooms or on field trips. The only contact our parents had with theachers was for parent teacher conferences. No one micromanaged our educations, yet we turned out just fine. This is yet another example of trying to recapture that sense of importance. Women are no longer needed at home so they're inventing things that "need" to be done and attaching importance to them that isn't there in order to feign that sense of importance. Unfortuntately, that doesn't make such things important.

Honestly, I see no difference between my kids and other kids because I did volunteer in their rooms and go on field trips. The school my children attended had so many parent volunteers that they limited what parents could do. All of them doing the same thing I was. Attaching importance to something that was never needed before and, therefore, unimportant in the big scheme of things.

This is just more evidence of how things have changed and diminished the importance of the roles of children and women. We (children and women) are trying to find our sense of importance again. Children have fewer opportunities to do so. Parent skip days and field trips are a poor replacement for KNOWING that your labors are important to the survivial of your family. To KNOWING you are a contributing member of a team working towards a common goal.
Times have changed for all people, not just women and children. And not just on the home front. Men used to work in the fields all day planting and harvesting their crops, tending to their livestock. There was no calling in sick back then. There were no summer vacations. If they didn't show up to work every day, their families would starve to death come winter.

Today, working men and women can take a mental health day every once in a while and nobody dies because of it. That doesn't mean their work is unimportant "in the big scheme of things" does it? It simply means that they have adapted to changing times and changes in the work place - from field to office, from stable to service station, from 3 room farm house to colonial in the suburbs. We no longer labor for mere survival, which in my view is a good thing!

We now have the time to engage in pursuits like team sports/music/clubs. We give of ourselves through our volunteer work. We help those who are less fortunate than ourselves. But the ability to do these things in no way diminishes the importance of the family team, at least not in our house.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-07-2010, 09:41 AM
 
4,267 posts, read 6,162,500 times
Reputation: 3579
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
The issue isn't accepting it but, rather, being unable to change it. Just growing a garden doesn't bring back the sense of belonging to the family team that must have existed 100 years ago on the family farm. It's just playing where that was reality.
Just because we can buy all of our food at the grocery store doesn't mean we have to. You might be amazed at how much food one can grow in an average sized yard. There is real value in learning to be more self sufficient rather then just expecting someone else to produce everything for us. If one has a lower SES (or are just a frugal person) it might even be a necessity.

Quote:
Pretending things haven't changed, won't change that they have. Kids know that sewing and cooking from scratch are no longer needed functions.What is lost is the importance of the job not the ability to do it. We can still bake bread or buy a cow and milk it but that doesn't change that we no longer NEED to do those things so they have lost their importance. It was in the importance of the work children and teens did that the sense of being part of the family team was born not in the job itself. You can't replace that by growing a garden or making jelly.
In my family, cooking from scratch as often as possible is a much needed function. It's necessary to stay within our budget, it's necessary to eat a healthy diet and it's necessary for my dd's food sensitivities. I'd also say that cooking from scratch leads to a higher quality of life overall. Taking it a step further and growing some of your own food makes the experience that much more rewarding. As for sewing, crocheting and knitting, sure we can go to the mall and buy clothing but we can also gain so much from learning the skills of our fore mothers.

Quote:
One of the reasons women have pushed their way into the work force is the importance of the job they did at home is gone. It's no longer a case of the family can't survive without her labors at home. Not only can they survive without them, they can do so well now because much of what women, traditionally, did is easily and cheaply replaced. In working a job and bringing in an income, women can replace the importance of what they do. Children don't have that option. Well, they do but, usually, they're not handing over their paycheck to their parents to help pay the bills.
Sure, housework is easier now then it was way back when but there is no such thing as an easy or cheap replacement for Mom. I don't want our family to just survive, I want us to thrive.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-07-2010, 10:05 AM
 
16,978 posts, read 16,206,503 times
Reputation: 28219
I agree. The cost benefits of DIY should not be underestimated. My husband recently fixed one of our appliances and that saved us a bundle in repair bills. Yet one more thing we hope to teach our children!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-07-2010, 11:25 AM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,386 posts, read 35,416,732 times
Reputation: 14692
Quote:
Originally Posted by springfieldva View Post
I agree. The cost benefits of DIY should not be underestimated. My husband recently fixed one of our appliances and that saved us a bundle in repair bills. Yet one more thing we hope to teach our children!
IMO, DIY projects are a good way to try and recapture some of what was lost. I have fond memories of finishing the addition on our house with my step father when I was a kid. I got the job of taping the seams, mudding them and sanding them smooth. We saved quite a bit of money by having the addition roughed in and finishing it ourselves. My parents couldn't have afforded that addition without that. I still had to share a room with my sisters but, at least, this one was big enough for three girls.

I'm thinking that we're going really green this summer (sorry I just don't have time to start a project of this magnitude during the school year). Teens are into green and we can track how much we save year over year now that everything is on line.

I did an energy analysis on our home and we use, considerably, more electricity than average for houses our size. I'm hoping that presenting this as going green works. It will give my kids something. We can look at the bills each month and see how well we're doing.

I'm also thinking we need to find some kind of volunteer service we can do on a regular basis. It's hard during the school year but I do have the summers off. Any suggestions for summer volunteering?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-07-2010, 11:37 AM
 
47,525 posts, read 69,470,334 times
Reputation: 22471
Quote:
Originally Posted by kelly3120 View Post
yup yup! I second that. we have one car payment and a mortgage. THAT'S IT! I didn't want the new car but hub was insistent on a safe car with babies.
I worked from home until last week. I just stopped working.
my hub would get home at 4pm and take over until around 7 or 8pm. it works and sometimes I'd finish early. I had one day out of the week where my mom watched the baby for 2 hours so I could go work at the college but that was more grandma time then babysitting.
*We have friends, the mom is a teacher and dad is a police man. He works 4pm through the night so he can be home with her and she works school days.
*my sil and bro pass off as well. She works 3-4 days starting early until 3pm and he starts to head to work once she gets home. Its very do-able!
Yes, nothing stops people from parenting in shifts, and also there are arrangements with other parents of young children that can be made so that the costs of day care can be avoided.

I know of some who trade babysitting services with others. You watch my kid during the day, I'll watch yours in the evening or keep him overnight.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-07-2010, 11:39 AM
 
47,525 posts, read 69,470,334 times
Reputation: 22471
Quote:
Originally Posted by springfieldva View Post
Times have changed for all people, not just women and children. And not just on the home front. Men used to work in the fields all day planting and harvesting their crops, tending to their livestock. There was no calling in sick back then. There were no summer vacations. If they didn't show up to work every day, their families would starve to death come winter.

Today, working men and women can take a mental health day every once in a while and nobody dies because of it. That doesn't mean their work is unimportant "in the big scheme of things" does it? It simply means that they have adapted to changing times and changes in the work place - from field to office, from stable to service station, from 3 room farm house to colonial in the suburbs. We no longer labor for mere survival, which in my view is a good thing!

We now have the time to engage in pursuits like team sports/music/clubs. We give of ourselves through our volunteer work. We help those who are less fortunate than ourselves. But the ability to do these things in no way diminishes the importance of the family team, at least not in our house.
Most places don't offer "mental health days" off -- I think only California does. It wouldn't be helpful where I work to try to take days off for that reason.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Parenting

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top