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Old 03-12-2010, 07:13 AM
 
Location: Denver 'burbs
24,012 posts, read 28,376,368 times
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Unfortunately it seems to happen eventually to about every thread here. There is always someone who feels compelled to mention that either a) moms who work outside the home aren't really parenting or b) moms who stay home aren't really doing anything important. I don't know why people feel the need to make pronouncements either way on someone else's decision but there you have it. The only thing I can think of is the people who get really defensive and definitive (on either side of the issue) aren't 100% comfortable with their own decision. Getting really old if you ask me.

ETA - I also don't thing that those extreme opinions represent the majority of moms....Most women I know have balanced both at one point or another in their lives and frankly are too busy to really get all wound up about someone else's choices in that respect (unless they are having a specific isssue with that choice impacting their own family).

Last edited by maciesmom; 03-12-2010 at 07:28 AM..
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Old 03-12-2010, 07:37 AM
 
2,605 posts, read 4,679,685 times
Reputation: 2194
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
.Here we go again with the attack the poster stance. Happens all the time when those opposing the view can't come up with a, logical, counter argument.

The truth bears repeating . If you don't like hearing it, then either prove me wrong or don't listen. Obviously, I've hit a nerve

Of course it's said the same way. It's the point. Most people have a desire to be contributing members of a team. It doesn't take a genius to see that.
You've hit no nerve, and I'm not attacking. You're flattering yourself thinking that.

You continue to berate those of us who are frustrated with this thread that is going nowhere. As someone on a previous page so aptly put it, it's like arguing with a brick.

The issue is not coming up with a logical counter argument, many of us have done that over and over again. The issue is, you continue to argue against nothing. NONE OF US UNDERSTAND WHAT YOUR PROBLEM IS with your lack of feeling important. NONE OF US UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU WANT FROM US AS A REPLY.

You repeat yourself page after page and there is absolutely no progression.
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Old 03-12-2010, 07:54 AM
 
5,747 posts, read 12,024,340 times
Reputation: 4511
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoExcuses View Post
The issue is not coming up with a logical counter argument, many of us have done that over and over again. The issue is, you continue to argue against nothing. NONE OF US UNDERSTAND WHAT YOUR PROBLEM IS with your lack of feeling important. NONE OF US UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU WANT FROM US AS A REPLY.
That is not true. At least two people, one of whom is me, completely understands where Ivory is coming from; however, I also understand your frustration since you and Ivory are apparently at an impasse. That said, I fail to understand why you are taking her comments so personally. If you are happy with your life, great! What does it matter what Ivory thinks? Perhaps you should consider ending your participation in the thread now that you've made your point. After all, you apparently think Ivory is a brick, and there isn't really any point in "arguing with a brick" after all.
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Old 03-12-2010, 08:37 AM
 
2,605 posts, read 4,679,685 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by formercalifornian View Post
That is not true. At least two people, one of whom is me, completely understands where Ivory is coming from; however, I also understand your frustration since you and Ivory are apparently at an impasse. That said, I fail to understand why you are taking her comments so personally. If you are happy with your life, great! What does it matter what Ivory thinks? Perhaps you should consider ending your participation in the thread now that you've made your point. After all, you apparently think Ivory is a brick, and there isn't really any point in "arguing with a brick" after all.
This whole thread is at an impasse.

Perhaps we should ALL consider ending participation in this thread now that we have all made our points and no progression has been seen.

Brick, not my discription. That belongs to another poster. I simply pointed it out.
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Old 03-12-2010, 09:18 AM
 
4,267 posts, read 6,166,813 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
I am referring to longitudinal studies that followed children to adulthood. I am aware there are differences seen at snapshots in time in children, however, by the end of elementary school, all but one disappears. The one that stays is that the daughters of working moms have higher self esteem than the daughters of stay at home moms and the sons of working moms view women as more equal to men. When all is said and done, that seems to be the only difference they find in our adult children and it's probably a case of the acrorn falling close to the tree not causal though they haven't ruled out a causal relationship.

I would be very surprised if living different lifestyles didn't net different results while you are living them. The question is does it make a difference in the long run and the answer is no. While a stay at home mom may have a better behaved three year old than I did, I wasn't raising a three year old. I'm raising future adults and those differences at three, five and six (there are studies to favor both working and staying home at different ages, for example, the children of working moms are more school ready at 5 while the children of stay at home moms are more school ready at 3. Doesn't matter if you don't go to school until you're 5 though so I never got why they did that one.) that go away over time are moot.

I don't have time right now, but I'll post the longitudinal studies when I have a chance (may be a couple of weeks with my current schedule - sorry, we lost the computer that had all this on it to a virus the kid found on a music site). Yes there are differences when you look at one moment in time but there really are none, that can't be explained by family similarities (don't know if it's genetics or environemental so I can't say which) that don't go away by the end of elementary school. If what I do today has a measureable difference today but not in 10 years, did it make a difference at all? IMO, no. Maybe my kids were the 3 year olds who showed more aggression but they're not 3 anymore and there is no evidence that that whole experience had any long term effect.

If you want to debate snapshots in time, I'm the wrong person to debate with. I'm worried about the final product. If it doesn't affect the final product, I don't consider it worth worrying about. I'm not worried about infant studies when there is no long term effect any more than SAHM's should be worried that they've found that the children of working moms do better when they start school. It all seems to even out in the end.

It would appear that, no matter what our decision WRT lifestyle early on, by the time our children reach middle school, they're on even ground. For me, that makes the whole working/not working argument a financial one. If it makes no difference in the long run, I'm going to do what is best for my family in the long run, financially. While my staying home would not have made a difference, what I saved for retirement and college by working will. That's a contribution I am proud of. It's kind of cool looking at bank balances and knowing that things are in the condition they are because of me. Given the downturn in the economy, my having SAH would have been a financial disaster for us. Not that we're in great shape now but we're in better shape than most because I didn't quit.

PS, I will comment on that last study you posted. Increased cortisol may be a good thing. The fact is we deal with stress our entire lives. Increased cortisol in infants may wire the brain to help them handle it better. The problem is, it's hard to tease this one out from acorns falling close to trees. Do children of dual working parents handle work/life stress better because they inherited the ability from their parents, learned it from their parents or because when their brains were wiring they experienced increased cortisol that wired their brains to handle it? We'll probably never know the answer to this but it doesn't appear to have any long term negative effects. (another possibility is that working parents themselves naturally produce more cortisol and learn to deal with increased cortisol, which may contribute to the decision to work, and this is just genetic. I actually favor this theory. I'd love to see them compare stress responses as these children get older. More cortisol is just more cortisol until someone determines it actually does something.)

Sorry, I guess that's another difference in adulthood. The ability to juggle work/life. Children of working parents seem to do it better but, as I said, this could be genetic or environmental. It's also a toss up as to whether or not you consider a good thing. I do. I want my children to be able to handle whatever life throws at them and handle it well. Hopefully, they've either inherited the ability to do so or learned how to do so from me. I know one thing they've learned and that's that there are more important things in life than a spotless house, lol.

All of my brohters and sisters and I were day care babies. All but one of us handles stress very well. The one who doesn't doesn't at all. We can't explain her. She requires the support of the entire family during bad times. The rest of us handle our lives quite well on our own.
Please do post the links to the longitudal studies when you have a chance as the only ones I could find followed children up until the age of 8. I have read the studies on both sides and imo, it's a wash. Like I said before they make no difference to me, I was posting because you seem to think that things that can't be measured by studies are meaningless and I wanted to show you that studies exist on both sides of the deabte.

As far as the effetcs of prolonged increased levels of cortisol, there is no need to speculate.

Cortisol and Stress: How Cortisol Affects Your Body, and How To Stay Healthy in the Face of Stress

Quote:
Higher and more prolonged levels of cortisol in the bloodstream (like those associated with chronic stress) have been shown to have negative effects, such as:
Impaired cognitive performance
Suppressed thyroid function
Blood sugar imbalances such as hyperglycemia
Decreased bone density
Decrease in muscle tissue
Higher blood pressure
Lowered immunity and inflammatory responses in the body, slowed wound healing, and other health consequences
Increased abdominal fat, which is associated with a greater amount of health problems than fat deposited in other areas of the body. Some of the health problems associated with increased stomach fat are heart attacks, strokes, the development of metabolic syndrome, higher levels of “bad” cholesterol (LDL) and lower levels of “good” cholesterol (HDL), which can lead to other health problems!
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Old 03-12-2010, 09:59 AM
 
Location: Northern Virginia
4,489 posts, read 10,914,386 times
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Count me as the #2 who gets what Ivory is saying, I guess! I have nothing against sahp's--if that is what makes you happy, then great! Enjoy it! The only real bullet points from all the arguments above are:

*Staying home is no longer a necessity to raise healthy, happy children.
*Taking care of the house is something that can be outsourced fairly easily, at no detriment to the home.
*Everyone gets to decide what makes them happy and feel fulfilled

That doesn't mean it's wrong to stay home! It means that a lot of people have analyzed the situation, and realized that the greatest contributions they can make to their family and the world as a whole is by working outside the house. Others analyze their finances and realize that day care costs more than their income and it makes more sense to stay home, because that's where they can contribute most to their family. Still others know they could make plenty of money, but for personal reasons (not wanting to miss their kid's steps, wanting to pick their kid up from school each day, etc) they choose to stay home. That's fine--it's everyone's choice to decide what will make them happy, and maybe you don't need to feel like you're changing the world to be happy. Maybe staying home allows you free time to volunteer in ways that you feel like you're making a difference. Maybe you don't agree with the studies, and feel like spending extra time with your kids is going to make a big difference in the end. Who knows? Who cares? If you're happy, great. If you're not, it's a sucky place to be (and many, many people aren't--hence all the career switchers, life coaches, counselors, and mid-life crises in our society!)

To bring it back to our kids though, they need to find something where they can say "This is a contribution that others find important." They don't have the ability to go get a job and contribute that way to society, nor are they responsible for keeping the house going during the day (unless mom and dad are physically unable to do it, due to working or disabilities or something). We need to come up with meaningful, purposeful activities for our children where they can gain confidence and pride in their contributions to others.

I want my children to have something in their life that is worth being bone dead exhausted at the end of the day for. Something that makes them get out of bed for a reason other than "because I have to go to school" or "because Mom gets mad when I don't do the dishes before noon on Saturdays".
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Old 03-12-2010, 10:21 AM
 
Location: Denver 'burbs
24,012 posts, read 28,376,368 times
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I think the issue was Ivory didn't say it wasn't a necessity, she said it wasn't important; in fact, it was a "false" importance. That there was no clear benefit to the family unit so it didn't count as something of importance. "Importance" is subjective....what might very well be "unimportant" in her family, might be hugely important in someone else's family. Plus, she is using that as one of many blanket statements she is attributing to society as a whole rather than just her own feeling of unimportance (along with her kid's similar feelings apparently). I understand going through a crisis in life and questioning yourself but I don't get thinking that if YOU don't feel important doing this than neither should anyone else (or, if they do, it's a false sense). She also is limiting these feelings to only women and children. Those are the things that are throwing me at least. If she is saying what YOU have said, then I understand THAT....but if she thinks that our forefathers (or mothers as the case may be) got up and did the chores and worked the farm because they got a feeling of fulfillment out of it I don't think that's the case. They did it because it had to be done to survive. They had no time left over to sit around and ponder what would "fulfill" them.

Last edited by maciesmom; 03-12-2010 at 10:44 AM..
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Old 03-12-2010, 10:49 AM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,386 posts, read 35,438,093 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by formercalifornian View Post
That is not true. At least two people, one of whom is me, completely understands where Ivory is coming from; however, I also understand your frustration since you and Ivory are apparently at an impasse. That said, I fail to understand why you are taking her comments so personally. If you are happy with your life, great! What does it matter what Ivory thinks? Perhaps you should consider ending your participation in the thread now that you've made your point. After all, you apparently think Ivory is a brick, and there isn't really any point in "arguing with a brick" after all.
I find it curious that people who are, supposedly, so content with their lives and so sure what someone else is saying doesn't apply to them get so up in arms about what is said.

I really don't get why saying that staying home doesn't accomplish more than working moms do is taken as offensive. The data seems to say that no matter which we choose, our kids do just fine. Personally, I think that's a good thing.


Again, thanks for chiming in. I find that when people insist on keeping blinders on, hearing the same thing from different sources helps.
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Old 03-12-2010, 10:50 AM
 
Location: Northern Virginia
4,489 posts, read 10,914,386 times
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I agree that a couple of ivory's comments were brash, but the bottom line is that the need for women to stay home is basically gone--and seeing as how the majority of people in this world (male or female, adults or children) value themselves based on the daily tasks they perform, it would make sense that women in general are struggling with finding some way to contribute to their families or to society in a meaningful way. We all crave feeling needed somehow. Some people are needed for their income, because the family can't survive without it. Some people are needed to clean the house, because it's impossible to hire someone else, and no one else has time. Some people aren't needed for either, and often seek out volunteer positions where they ARE needed. If your services aren't needed, they probably don't make you feel important at the end of the day.

My mother-in-law stays home (was a stay at home mom, tried to go back to work when the kids were grown and hated it, so now she's a stay-at-home-wife, I guess?). She is going batty trying to find meaning and purpose in her daily life. She volunteers herself to babysit other people's children, offers to come visit us to clean our house (yeah, I turn her down on that one!), and plays chauffeur to her parents to get them to medical appointments, despite the fact that they drive just fine. She keeps the house clean, sure--but it's fairly obvious that she doesn't need to stay home to do that. Every time I talk to her she feels the need to justify her decision to me--"See, I wouldn't be available to help people if I was working!" She says she's happy, but I don't think she feels like she's needed in any way, so she can't be sure of her decision. She's even tried to start up several at-home businesses so she can feel like she's bringing in income.

I hate my current job, as many pioneers and farmers probably did back in the day. But at the end of the day when I come home exhausted, I know there was a reason to it--I brought home income to my family. This will allow us to buy a house, fund college accounts, and buy plane tickets to visit family. That makes me proud that I can do that. I imagine that pioneers probably felt the same way. No one enjoys milking cows in below freezing temperatures, and you're right, they did it out of necessity...but it sure must have felt good to bring in the buckets of milk from the snow and be able to provide that for your family. Pride in being able to provide was justification for being dead tired.

To this day, my grandfather still tells me stories about the chores he did on the farm, because he's darn proud of that hard work and contributions he made. He tells me about how he built the sturdy fence that kept the cows in, saving on repair costs, and how if he didn't harvest the wheat the proper way the family lost a lot of income. My grandmother-in-law tells stories about working for the federal reserve, as one of the first women in management. She can't tell me enough about all the changes she enacted for women in the work place. That's her source of pride. Everyone should have one. If you can get it from cooking and cleaning and changing diapers--great. If you can't, be thankful that we have the option to go into work and get it there.

Our children have neither the ability to work nor keep the house in order. The point of this thread is to find them a sense of true pride.
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Old 03-12-2010, 10:54 AM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,386 posts, read 35,438,093 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaliTerp07 View Post
Count me as the #2 who gets what Ivory is saying, I guess! I have nothing against sahp's--if that is what makes you happy, then great! Enjoy it! The only real bullet points from all the arguments above are:

*Staying home is no longer a necessity to raise healthy, happy children.
*Taking care of the house is something that can be outsourced fairly easily, at no detriment to the home.
*Everyone gets to decide what makes them happy and feel fulfilled

That doesn't mean it's wrong to stay home! It means that a lot of people have analyzed the situation, and realized that the greatest contributions they can make to their family and the world as a whole is by working outside the house. Others analyze their finances and realize that day care costs more than their income and it makes more sense to stay home, because that's where they can contribute most to their family. Still others know they could make plenty of money, but for personal reasons (not wanting to miss their kid's steps, wanting to pick their kid up from school each day, etc) they choose to stay home. That's fine--it's everyone's choice to decide what will make them happy, and maybe you don't need to feel like you're changing the world to be happy. Maybe staying home allows you free time to volunteer in ways that you feel like you're making a difference. Maybe you don't agree with the studies, and feel like spending extra time with your kids is going to make a big difference in the end. Who knows? Who cares? If you're happy, great. If you're not, it's a sucky place to be (and many, many people aren't--hence all the career switchers, life coaches, counselors, and mid-life crises in our society!)

To bring it back to our kids though, they need to find something where they can say "This is a contribution that others find important." They don't have the ability to go get a job and contribute that way to society, nor are they responsible for keeping the house going during the day (unless mom and dad are physically unable to do it, due to working or disabilities or something). We need to come up with meaningful, purposeful activities for our children where they can gain confidence and pride in their contributions to others.

I want my children to have something in their life that is worth being bone dead exhausted at the end of the day for. Something that makes them get out of bed for a reason other than "because I have to go to school" or "because Mom gets mad when I don't do the dishes before noon on Saturdays".
Well said. I'm happy for people who feel fullfilled without making a contribution. Great for them. I don't. I also see that our children often don't. I see 140 kids every day and most of them are lookikng for a sense of purpose. Only a handful don't seem to care if they never do anything that really matters. Many will be very disappointed if they don't.

Personally, I have a need to know that what I do matters. I know that I'm loved and people want me in their lives but that's not enough. I want to know, that at the end of the day, my contribution mattered. That the world, at least my little part of it, is better because I lived today. If someone else doesn't want that, that is their choice. I'm not telling anyone they have to care ot make a contribution in the way I want to. I'm simply pointing out that many of us are trying to figure out how to recapture that sense of importance we once had. Of course, we'd like to do it with not nearly the work load.

As to our kids, which is what this discussion is supposed to be about, we have to figure out how to help them find their sense of purpose. Our children's "job" is to be a student but, surprisngly, few of them really care about grades beyond that they will get into trouble if they are low. It's not a source of pride for them and they don't seem to feel a sense of purpose in accomplishing them. There has to be something else. I just don't know how to help my children find that.

We're going to try volunteering at an animal shelter this summer. We'll see how that goes.

My mother in law talks about life during the depression and how they all had to work to feed the family with pride. While I find it surprising that people would actually argue that we aren't looking for a sense of purpose, to each his own. I'm not happy unless I know what I do matters and chores, today, don't compare to yesterday.
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