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Old 03-11-2010, 06:05 PM
 
4,267 posts, read 6,167,403 times
Reputation: 3579

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Quote:
Originally Posted by formercalifornian View Post
Why would that comment be hurtful or offensive to any of you? If anyone has a right to be offended and/or hurt, it's Ivory, but I've read enough of her posts to know that she's intelligent, educated, & well-grounded and probably doesn't need me to defend her. Nonetheless, I've been appalled to fine that this entire thread is peppered with subtle and not-so-subtle suggestions that Ivory seek counseling, look for a better job, and/or become a better parent all because she dared to question the status quo. That is what's offensive!
She is saying that sahm's serve no purpose and are unimportant. How can that statement not be construed as offensive?

I think a lot of the frustration that you are seeing is being carried over from recent threads where this topic has been beaten to death.
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Old 03-11-2010, 06:12 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,386 posts, read 35,440,837 times
Reputation: 14692
Quote:
Originally Posted by formercalifornian View Post
Why would that comment be hurtful to any of you? If anyone has a right to be offended and/or hurt, it's Ivory, but I've read enough of her posts to know that she's intelligent, educated, & well-grounded and probably doesn't need me to defend her. Nonetheless, I've been appalled to find that this entire thread is peppered with subtle and not-so-subtle suggestions that Ivory needs to seek counseling, look for a better job, and/or become a better parent all because she dares to question the status quo.
Thanks for the support. Even though I'm a big girl and can take care of myself, it's nice to have somoene else who gets it offer support.

As to the suggestions I need to fix my life, that's just people who can't support their own position. The tactic is simple. If you can't support your point, then you attack the person making the post in an attempt to cover up that you can't actually support your own point and hope they go away. Funny thing is just about everyone recognizes that for what it is. A diversion tactic.
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Old 03-11-2010, 06:16 PM
 
Location: Denver 'burbs
24,012 posts, read 28,379,095 times
Reputation: 41122
I have to say....I'm not getting all this....I have never felt my contribution wasn't important to my family - whether I stayed home or whether I worked. I've never felt this lacking you describe....It hasn't come up in discussion with my friends either. My kids have never indicated they didn't feel important....You say women are going through this but frankly, I see women as doing more than they have and in fact, stepping into roles that were held in the past by mostly men....I don't see similar levels of men making that crossover so I would think if anyone is having an identity crisis it would be men....? Perhaps I'm missing the big picture though....wouldn't be the first time.
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Old 03-11-2010, 06:18 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,386 posts, read 35,440,837 times
Reputation: 14692
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dorthy View Post
She is saying that sahm's serve no purpose and are unimportant. How can that statement not be construed as offensive?

I think a lot of the frustration that you are seeing is being carried over from recent threads where this topic has been beaten to death.
I am saying women's roles have changed in the last 50+ years and much of what was important that we had to do before is gone. That is a fact. I'm sorry some don't like it but it's reality. Facts are facts. They shouldn't be taken as offensive. They just are.

Ask yourself this: If staying home serves a vital purpose, how come the children of stay at home moms don't turn out better than the children of working moms? If it were important, it would matter in the big scheme of things. It doesn't so it isn't.

Good parenting matters, raising your children in a good environment matters, having both parents in the household matters, SES matters, education matters....lots of things matter but whether or not your mom stayed home doesn't. That's just a lifestyle choice.

Personally, I'm glad it doesn't matter. If it did, women wouldn't have choices in what they do with their lives.

When you look at how mothers spend their time, there really isn't much difference between today's working mom and yesterday's stay at home mom. We just changed the location of where we work from the barn to the cubicle.
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Old 03-11-2010, 06:22 PM
 
4,267 posts, read 6,167,403 times
Reputation: 3579
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
As they say, the truth hurts. Reality is, the importance of the role women used to fill is gone. I do believe we are struggling to find that sense of importance again. Unfortunately, some do so by inventing importance where there is none. For example, many will argue that staying home with children is important even though there is a lack of evidence to show that children actually turn out better if mom does. If doing something makes no difference, it's not important in the big scheme of things. Some don't like hearing the truth.

In order for something to matter, it has to net a positive return for effort. What we women do at home today doesn't. It doesn't even amount to a part time job let alone a vital contribution to family.
Not everything can be measured by statistics and even if they could not every single thing has been studied so take those stats with a grain of salt. I feel fortunate that I do feel a sense of purpose and importance in my family. I'm sorry that you can't understand that.

Quote:
In some ways I'm glad I don't have the workload of my grandmother but she never would have questioned whether or not her role was vital. She knew it was. The family, simply, could not function without her efforts. Years ago, men used to, actively, seek a wife if they lost theirs because a wife was necessary. He couldn't be successful without one. Today, it doesn't take a team to run a home because so much of the work has been removed from the home. While that's a good thing, we are left with a void to fill. [b]Personally, I desire to fill mine with meaningful things that make a difference.[b]
What is it that you are doing that is so important?
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Old 03-11-2010, 06:22 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,386 posts, read 35,440,837 times
Reputation: 14692
Quote:
Originally Posted by maciesmom View Post
I have to say....I'm not getting all this....I have never felt my contribution wasn't important to my family - whether I stayed home or whether I worked. I've never felt this lacking you describe....It hasn't come up in discussion with my friends either. My kids have never indicated they didn't feel important....You say women are going through this but frankly, I see women as doing more than they have and in fact, stepping into roles that were held in the past by mostly men....I don't see similar levels of men making that crossover so I would think if anyone is having an identity crisis it would be men....? Perhaps I'm missing the big picture though....wouldn't be the first time.
Are you the norm? I can say this, our kids are looking for something and they're looking outside of the home for it. Many women are too. More choose careers than choose to stay home these days.

That's right. Women are stepping into roles once reserved for men. Now why would they do that if they were so fulfilled with the role they had? Think about it.
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Old 03-11-2010, 06:32 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,386 posts, read 35,440,837 times
Reputation: 14692
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dorthy View Post
Not everything can be measured by statistics and even if they could not every single thing has been studied so take those stats with a grain of salt. I feel fortunate that I do feel a sense of purpose and importance in my family. I'm sorry that you can't understand that.



What is it that you are doing that is so important?
Now that's hogwash. So what is this difference that no one can measure that REALLY matters??? If it can't be seen or measured, why does it matter? This is a classic cop out when the data doesn't support your side of the debate. To claim that it's things you can't measure that matter. Ok, what are they and why do they matter? Support your claims. Feelings are irrational and often illogical. That you feel something doesn't make it true. That is a sad reality in life.

I'm still trying to find my sense of purpose in life. I've tried plant chemistry (I may have to go back to that one as I felt very good about keeping everyone safe in the plant), design/feasibility/test engineering (probably would have been ok if I could have stuck with the safety aspect) and teaching, which is a washout because there just is no need for teachers these days. Too bad the math/science teacher shortage didn't materialize. That would have been a great way to contribute.

I hope I find it before I die. I really don't want my tombstone to read "Here lies Ivory. She did what she felt like doing.". I'd rather do what really matters. I just need to figure out what that is. I know it's not cleaning house, cooking dinner or watching the kids. I can't say my home life contributes. It's just what I do when I'm not working. I love my family but there's really nothing critical I do for them. It's very easy to replace anything I do at home. You can't replace me, the person, but you can replace everything that needs to be done at home cheaply and easily. That reminds me that I really miss my housekeeper. Can't afford one on a teacher's salary.
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Old 03-11-2010, 06:32 PM
 
Location: Denver 'burbs
24,012 posts, read 28,379,095 times
Reputation: 41122
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
Are you the norm? I can say this, our kids are looking for something and they're looking outside of the home for it. Many women are too. More choose careers than choose to stay home these days.

That's right. Women are stepping into roles once reserved for men. Now why would they do that if they were so fulfilled with the role they had? Think about it.
I think there are all kinds of people who are dissatisfied with their lives. We have more free time to ponder and we have a higher capability to view the lives of others - and because of a lot of marketing, feel somehow inadequate or that other people are living much more satisfying lives. I think a lot of that is marketing frankly. Do I really think that people whose lives are on TV or in the news for this or that accomplishment (or pseudo accomplishment in many cases) lead much better lives than I do? No...but I think there are people who believe that. I think the things that used to make us happy and fulfilled are no longer deemed "good enough"...people used to be happy to have children that survived childhood, that graduated high school, that served their country and lived to tell about it. That is no longer good enough. People aren't happy their kids are going to college, it has to be a college they can brag about, they aren't happy to afford a car, they have to have several new cars of a certain kind. Not happy? Maybe it's because you don't have an iphone..or a Coach bag or whatever. We are trying to buy happiness. I don't think this is women or kids feeling they are not contributing but instead people buying into marketing that they will be happy if they are "rich" or drive a certain car....stop linking happiness to that kind of "stuff" and enjoy life and be thankful....you might just find some of that elusive "importance".....
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Old 03-11-2010, 06:42 PM
 
4,267 posts, read 6,167,403 times
Reputation: 3579
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
Now that's hogwash. So what is this difference that no one can measure that REALLY matters??? If it can't be seen or measured, why does it matter? This is a classic cop out when the data doesn't support your side of the debate. To claim that it's things you can't measure that matter. Ok, what are they and why do they matter? Support your claims. Feelings are irrational and often illogical. That you feel something doesn't make it true. That is a sad reality in life.
That's not hogwash, it's the truth. Statistics can not and do not measure everything. It's simply not possible. Besides even if they could there are still plenty of things that have yet to be studied.

Quote:
I'm still trying to find my sense of purpose in life. I've tried plant chemistry (I may have to go back to that one as I felt very good about keeping everyone safe in the plant), design/feasibility/test engineering (probably would have been ok if I could have stuck with the safety aspect) and teaching, which is a washout because there just is no need for teachers these days. Too bad the math/science teacher shortage didn't materialize. That would have been a great way to contribute.

I hope I find it before I die. I really don't want my tombstone to read "Here lies Ivory. She did what she felt like doing.". I'd rather do what really matters. I just need to figure out what that is. I know it's not cleaning house, cooking dinner or watching the kids. I can't say my home life contributes. It's just what I do when I'm not working. I love my family but there's really nothing critical I do for them. It's very easy to replace anything I do at home. You can't replace me, the person, but you can replace everything that needs to be done at home cheaply and easily. That reminds me that I really miss my housekeeper. Can't afford one on a teacher's salary.
Sorry you feel that way. Good luck with it.
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Old 03-11-2010, 06:44 PM
 
Location: southern california
61,289 posts, read 87,195,928 times
Reputation: 55551
dont tell them their heritage was exploiting others.
tell them they were and are builders and have brought technology and administrative abilities to the rest of the world.
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